Suggestion:20080112 Follow Groan

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	This suggestion has finished voting and has been moved to Peer Rejected.

Follow Groan

 Swiers 02:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion type
skill improvement

Suggestion scope
Feeding Groan

Suggestion description

introduction: Feeding Groans inspire urgency in those who hear them, zombie or survivor. As such, this suggestion would simulate zombies blindly and instinctively responding to feeding groans, driven purely by hunger, or survivors rushing to intervene in an ongoing attack they hear in the distance while outside. The aim of this suggestion is to make things a bit easier on new players (who may lack skill at navigating) and low level zombies (who lack Lurching Gait) and to potentially save other players some IP hits and time.

mechanics: Feeding groans normally give the distance(s) and direction(s) from which they originated. Per this suggestion, each feeding groan you hear would also have a button that says "Follow Groan (nAP)". Pressing that button would move your character directly to the "outside" location at the co-ordinates from which the groan originated, with the AP cost (n) being equal to the normal "minimum distance" cost for moving to that block (1 AP per block moved). This is regardless of whether the character is human or zombie, or even a zombie who does not have Lurching Gait.

issues:

• Isn't this a Speed Action or form of teleportation? It could be described as such. But so can Free Running. With free running, you skip the movement step of leaving / entering a building (and its AP cost), and never see the outsides of locations. With Follow Groan, you would skip moving through a few intervening blocks (but not the AP cost) and not see what was in those blocks. Feeding Groans are not predictable, and rarely would this affect "real time" combat, as most times zombies follow groans that are many minutes old.
• Can this take you into negative AP? As with other actions that cost more than 1 AP (including movement for zombies who lack Luching Gait) this could take you into negative AP. You'd likely end up outside a building that is either going to get ruined or re barricaded before you can act, but if you wanted to you could do it. Manufacture of Necrotech Syringes (a Speed Action already allowed by the game) and movment by zombies who lack Lurching Gait can already result in negative AP, so it seems an established game mechanic.
• What is the point / effect of this? The primary effect is to allow low level feral zombies to respond to feeding groans more easily, with fewer AP to move and no chance of getting lost, both of which are good for players who don't meta game. The secondary effect is that experienced players can more easily follow groans- its the same movement cost for them, but eliminates the chance of getting lost, and reduces IP hits they use moving. Tertiary effects might be to reduce server load (fewer IP hits used by both newbies and experienced players = less server load) and also increase the utility of feeding groan slightly.
• What if I'm not standing up? You can't move when you are a corpse, and standing up would refresh the screen. Thus, this only works for character's that are standing. To really benefit from this ability, low level zombies would have to make an effort to avoid being killed.
• How far does this let you move? What is the AP cost going to be? You can only ever hear Feeding Groans from at most six blocks away, so it would let you move up to 6 blocks. Movement from one point to another in Malton can always be accomplished by moving a number of blocks equal to the greater of Δ(X co-ordinate values) or Δ(Y co-ordinate values), through a combination of diagonal and straight moves. Thus, the AP cost would vary from 1 to 6 AP as the distance of the groan does.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Author's vote.  Swiers 03:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Keep I like this; the feeding groans, the blocks and directions confuse me sometimes; I couldn't follow them if I wanted to. And I'd like to thank grim for editing his vote specifically to insult me.  Nalikill  ^{TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI}  03:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Keep - It'd save me IP hits. --Pdeq^Talk* 03:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Keep - I'm a greedy asshole who doesn't donate. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 03:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep/Change I like it, but teleportation is a bit too powerful... I think the delay-action idea someone suggest might work, but yeah, it would suck to code XD ~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_? 05:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Keep - More active battles this way too. Plus, we're beating you zeds so badly right now, you need a buff. --Heretic144 05:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Keep - As AHLG. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 11:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
8. Change - Make the zombie stand up automatically and pay the cost as well.Studoku 12:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Cool I like it. - Pardus 14:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
10. Keep - because if it cost zed's without lurching gait 2Ap per square, it would be pointless.--Zach016 17:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Keep - As AHLG. ----/~Rakuen~\ 04:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
12. Keep - Interesting idea, although minor impact. - Grant 04:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
13. Keep - nothing really game-breaking here; although it is a speed-action, the randomness isn't touched, real-time combat isn't really touched, but newbie zombies that want reach location where groan was but forget where it was after moving few blocks and get lost would be saved. --~~~~ [talk] 09:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
14. Keep As above --Darth Lumis^{T! A! E! SR} 01:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
15. Keep - This would: help newbies, save a few IP hits (and bandwidth for Kevan), make things less complicated for all zombie players. I'm all for it! -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 07:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
16. Keep - Reduces stress on the server, and simulates very well the way that more zombies seem to appear out of nowhere once a survivor sees one. Plus, it helps newbie zombies, which is something they all need (you know there's a problem when your best method for leveling up is to attack your allies). --Reaper with no name ^TJ! 14:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
17. I am on a voting spree, but to make this vote valid, I'm in agreement with those above. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 20:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
18. Keep - As so many above me. Acoustic Pie 21:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - get rid of the 1AP fixed movement cost per square. If you don't have Lurching Gait, it should take 2AP otherwise it reduces the need for that skill. Also change it so that bodies can click on the link, and it just adds an extra 1 or 10AP cost to reflect getting up. This doesn't touch on the mechanics involved if a groan comes from inside a fort (or even on the other side of a fort), meaning there is no direct route to the groan -- boxy ^{talk • i} 05:51 12 January 2008 (BST)

   Hmm, the Fort issue is indeed significant, and that was not an intended effect. Simply not allowing this when the groans come from a fort square might suffice; say the echos from the walls are to confusing or some such.  Swiers 16:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

2. kill too many problems that would make implementation problematic! Forts block movement being a biggie, hearing most groans while being dead being the other. Agree that free running is teleportation tho, if it weren't it would just allow you to enter HB buildings rather than skip all interaction with the other 2 squares!--Honestmistake 13:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Kill - Seeing as the smarter zombies move in groups anyway, why would some low-level zombie groups (such as LUE) need to bother purchasing Lurching Gait? They can simply have a zombie with Death Rattle yell every so often, and the "herd" would follow. Hence, this skill is broken. And yes, it is a speed skill. --Private Mark 15:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Zombies can't arbitrarily use feeding groan. The need to be standing next to a survivor, and the range is equal to the number of survivors present (max 6). Anyhow, low level horde zombies would still purchase Lurching Gait because it is a pre-requisite to Ankle Grab, and for cases where they move without following groans.  Swiers 16:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

4. Kill As several people above me have pointed out, if you made zombies without lurching gait have to use 2AP per square then I could see myself voting keep for this.--Seventythree^Talk 16:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Kill I dont want to be moving across a block with a zombie in it who's just waiting for me, have him groan as i ass through his block, and after my very next action, that one zombie has turned into a 20 zombie horde just chippin away at me. Overpowered.--Kuddles 18:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Do you know how Feeding Groan works? One survivor gives it a one block range. So in that situation, every zombie it could call in, can already see you and move on you with one action.  Swiers 00:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

6. Kill - It would allow for lower level zombies to get somewhere without using up the normal amount of AP, which is unfair. Think of how easy it would be to zerg with this. --Ciaran Deckardson 04:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Kill/Change - I like the very basic spirit of this suggestion, but I don't like the instantly moving a large distance away, nor bypassing the penalty of no lurching gait. Perhaps a "follow groan" button that when pressed, moves you 1 space towards the groan, and would stay there for repeated pressing?--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 16:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   That seems like a good development. Given this vote looks headed for rejection (although not spamination, at this point) I might try it. The mechanics seem complex though; currently there is no "memory" for groans. And what if you hear another groan? I suppose if you only had the option to follow fresh groans, plus the one groan you had last followed, it could work. Hmm...  Swiers 18:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

8. Kill - See boxy above. As well, there is something else that I can't put my finger on about this one. --Ryiis 14:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Kill - This is not Star Trek, no teleportation.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  18:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
10. 'Kill/Change - I'm against this having any heavily-abused effects, but some revamp of it may be acceptable. --Diano 20:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Kill - This is teleportation. It allows zombies to skip past any survivors who may be standing between them and the site of the groan, essentially giving them free passage. - Headshot Hal 16:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - Violates: Makes suggestions, not arguments. It is a Speed Action, and its a new way to do old things. Also, you addressed none of the concerns i brought up when you had this on the discussion page. Also, as i already explained, free running is not a speed action. It is a mechanic that allows humans to enter EHB buildings, for which there is no other method. If you had paid attention when i last told you this, you wouldnt look like such an idiot now. Only a moron is incapable of the basic maths required to follow a feeding groan on their own, and all this mechanic will do is get a few overenthusiastic newbies to get bashed into negative AP by it. Besides, its the journey thats important, not the ending. Id like to edit my vote once again to acknowledge nalikills vote edit, and point out that he had already insulted himself, i just mocked him for it. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 03:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   "Make Suggestions, Not Arguments: Even if you don't like something about the game, when you post a suggestion, you need to explain what you would change with the things you don't like. What exactly would your suggestion alter? If you're posting a suggestion that doesn't include some constructive change in the way the game operates, or that tries to argue for obviously destructive options, then you're not making a suggestion, you're making an argument. Don't do this."
   I think I followed that both to the letter, and in spirit, by explaining what would change and avoiding obviously destructive options. Democracy can decide whether that's so.  Swiers 03:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
   More at Suggestion_talk:20080112_Follow_Groan#Voting_Discusion

   About two thirds your suggestion is dedicated to arguing against the things i brought up in talk. Thats an argument if ever i saw one, and not a terribly good one i might add, seeing as how you ignored a whole pile of points i made on the talk page. Especially that free running nonsense. Also, you have ignored two of the Do's and Do nots i pointed out your suggestion breaking. Possibly because there is no form of rebuttal. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 04:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

2. Spam - Allows a zombie to teleport away from an attacker (survivor or zombie), nerfing real-time fights. Teleportation also prevents anyone who's active from noticing the zed's movement. I find real-time situations to be a vital and engaging part of this game, and deliberately and significantly removing them is... bad. --Ms.Panes 05:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Spam Teleportation. It isn't about following the groans. It's about skipping the intervening squares. Under normal circumstances, you enter a square and have to decide where to go next. Even if your going in the same direction with each move, you still have HUMAN reaction time, not to mention the possibility of intervening obstacles to contend with. But the computer is much faster and there would, effectively, be no obstructions in your trip. NO chance for survivors or others to interact with you. Alos, the AP cost is too low.--Pesatyel 05:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Spam - Sorry Swiers. 1) It is teleportation you would skip moving through a few intervening blocks (but not the AP cost) and not see what was in those blocks. makes it so, the issue with teleportation isn't the AP it's the instant movement part. 2)and reduces IP hits they use moving. is wrong, AP==IP, 6 AP to ?rise takes 6 IP hits, 20 AP to manufacture syringes take 20 IP hits, try it for yourself. 3)To really benefit from this ability, low level zombies would have to make an effort to avoid being killed. sucks, it's all I'd need to spam this as useless, as is it's hard enough to get a benefit from Scent Trail which has a similar requirement. 4)this could take you into negative AP presents a few problems too, for example you can now wait for a groan on your last AP and follow it or hold a groan link in your cache and on your last AP hit back and use that link it adds movement and while that's not necessarily a bad thing it also discourages traveling which is actually kinda important to low level zombies as it allows them to find the large hordes, not to mention that it's yet another negative AP action which is another pretty large net AP loss for zombies as a whole, it's basically another Ruin style deduction. 5)Allows a zombie to teleport away from an attacker, nerfing real-time fights. is actually a good point to why this is a good idea, zombies are already at such a massive disadvantage in those style fights that they either have to run away or, at best, can ?rise which comes with a nice bit of survivor returns and downsides that make it essentially pointless, zombies have no advantage in a real time fight they can't even really run away those are pretty much survivor always wins style situations. 6)This actively discourages zombies from sleeping inside, holding ransacks/ruins, and pretty much nerfs zombies when they break into malls or other buildings as they will end up auto dumped. It's yet another nerf in buffsauce, just like ruin, what's the balance gonna be +5 levels to barricades?--Karek^maps?! 05:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   1) I stated in the suggestion that teleportation was a reasonable description, yes. 2) Reviving costs 10 AP but only 1 IP hit. I know, because I;ve done it when I had fewer than 9 IP hits left, and the counter only went down by 1. 4) Isn't an intended effect. Your ability to follow a groan would be canceled by standing up (as I said in the suggestiong text); it should also be canceled by any other action you perform. 6) I guess, although the zombies it benefits probably already do not sleep inside, and the ones you WANT sleeping inside (rotters) don't really need the help, and know it.  Swiers 06:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   2)I'm sorry to say then it's probably a bug

   4) Seems like too much of a hassle, only two things I can think of have ever been limited in such a way and that's because both were being abused in a manner to make the game less fun for a large group of people. Those things would be ?barricade and skill.cgi?buy=.

   As for 1), teleportation is a good reason to spam by itself, I'd prefer not to lend weight to the "railroads" argument but, you seem to be claiming that teleportation is already in the game when free running is actually a quite different mechanic.--Karek^maps?! 08:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

5. Spam - As above. No teleporting tolerated. Maybe if it was to move one square by one square, but no, not instant shift. ~Ariedartin • Talk • A KS J abt all 07:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Spam - teleportation. (And it can't fairly be equated with Free Running, at all. Don't be ridiculous.) By teleporting, you avoid all the time and trouble (or distractions) you might otherwise encounter by moving square by square. Horrible suggestion. Game-breaking. --Funt Solo ^QT 10:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   If occasional (likely very rare) escape from / avoidance of live combat outdoors via this mechanic would be "game breaking", then this game is damn fragile. Or is there some strategic value to killing active zombies outside (the only place this would ever have effect) that I'm missing?  Swiers 16:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   You're assuming that the most interesting thing between A and B, is B. It might not be. Further, this encourages zerging by reducing the IP cost, and only really for zombies. It's not fair on the survivor playas. No teleportation. (And to answer your question - yes, there is a strategic point to attacking zombies outside - it's called harvesting XP: new players don't care too much for meta-strategy, when they're after quick bursts of XP to level up. Or, for RP purposes, a gang of survivors might decide to take the fight to the streets. In your blind ambition to push this suggestion, you're failing to recognise the critical flaws.) --Funt Solo ^QT 17:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

7. Spam - Ability to flee from attackers instantaneously, with no chance of them catching up. Free running != teleport, this does. ChrisForelle 17:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
8. Spam Teleports are bad. Omega 23:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Spam - As Ms. Panes, the #2 spammer said--Kolechovski 16:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)