Suggestion:20080120 make ruins not visible from other blocks

	Removed
	This suggestion has been removed from voting by the author because the unknown impact updates of Jan 23 2008 will need to play out.

make ruins not visible from other blocks

 Swiers 03:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion type
balance change

Suggestion scope
interface, ruins

Suggestion description
mechanics: Simply put, ruins would retain all current effects, but they they would not be visible on the minimap. You would still know if the building in your own block was ruined (via the description text and other effects) but would not know about surrounding buildings. This would apply equally to zombies and survivors both. The one exception would be survivors who use binoculars from a tall building; they would be able to see ruins (in the same way they are currently marked) in the "binocular vision" display.

intended effect: Ruining a building takes a fair amount of zombie AP, and most of the time, a simple 1 AP ransack would be equally effective, as it is no easier to repair. What's worse, Ruins act as a well marked "entry point" for survivors who wish to enter more heavily barricaded buildings using "free running". This leads many zombie players to believe that ruining a building, on the balance, actually HELPS survivors, and serves no real useful purpose for zombies. Making it so that they can't normally be spotted from other blocks would greatly reduce the beneficial effects Ruins have as an entry point, and also require a bit more planning / caution on the part of survivors when using free-running in an area where building status is uncertain.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep - Zombie ap should not so overtly benefit survivors. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 03:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Keep As Grim. --Banana reads Scoundrell for all of Yesterday's News, Today! 03:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Keep - Ruins should never have been noticable from the minimap. Unless zombies can break down walls, I don't see how a survivor could tell the difference between on of Malton's thousands of derelict buildings and one that is "ruined." --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 03:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Keep - Authors's vote. Damn, guys, I just went to the kitchen to fix a snack!  Swiers 04:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep- Ah, this would make it more viable of a skill for zombies. -- BKM 04:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Keep- Much needed. It would really help the balance. Prof. Latirus 04:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

   Keep - although I would rather that zombies still be able to recognise them on the 9 block map -- boxy ^{talk • i} 05:14 20 January 2008 (BST)

   Reconsidered -- boxy ^{talk • i} 07:03 20 January 2008 (BST)

7. Keep - Bowchikabowwow? I love it =) --/~Rakuen~\ 05:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
8. Keep - YES. --Howard Bentley 05:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Keep - This does not actually solve the problem that ruin is AP-imbalanced and helpful to survivors in many ways. It just makes it slightly less obvious how useful it is to survivors. - Grant 07:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
10. Keep - Doesn't nerf zombies. they couldn't see ransacked buildings from the street before the ruin change and already had strategies for dealing with it. Survivors can free run from a ruined building, which is a guaranteed entry point. Ms Panes says that you should be able to see a building is ruined if half of it is missing, I say if the damage is that bad, it should cost more than a single AP to fix (heck, a ranacked building costs a single AP to fix). - Bisfan 08:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Keep - Good plan. About time zombies got something like this.--Seventythree^Talk 09:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
12. Keep - My name is Karek and I support this suggestion. Btw, all the kill voters_{(between Ms. Panes and Ariedartin as that's all of them at current)} reasons are just wrong.--Karek^maps?! 09:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
13. Keep - Boxy has a good point, but I want to see how much tougher we can make this game for the survivors. --_Ducis ^Dux_Sloth^Talk 10:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
14. Keep - I think this would be good for the game. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 12:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
15. Keep - Excellent. --TriPolarClicky! 16:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
16. Keep - It's a good reason. BoboTalkClown 17:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
17. Keep - First step in making ruin not a terrible thing --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 18:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
18. Keep - Ruin is damned close to a survivor buff. This balances it a little. --The Hierophant 01:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
19. keep - All of Malton is supposed to be in a terrible state and I doubt if repair includes re-glazing windows! What should be visable from the street is buildings with extra heavy barricades. --Honestmistake 13:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
20. I like it. I think Free Running needs to be nerfed and this is a way to do that. And I think the author's arguments about barricades and doors is an appropriate comparison to this. Those can't be seen, why should this?--Pesatyel 06:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - Ruins flavor, and would inconvenience both my harman and zed. I like knowing which buildings are ruined. It's a visible mark of the wave of zombie-generated destruction. It's good flavor. Besides, if half the side of a building was missing I'd think I'd be able to notice from a block away. Also, seeing ruins is useful for letting my zombie know where not to bother attacking, and useful for my survivor to know (once she gets that *^%$ toolbox) where to repair, and where not to bother sleeping. --Ms.Panes 04:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

   I didn't think ruin destoyed half the side of a building. It's all internal, like pipes and wiring (which is why the toolbox was needed). non author, unsigned re -- boxy ^{talk • i} 05:12 20 January 2008 (BST)

2. Kill - Inconveniences both survivor (because they cannot see free run avenues) and zombies (cannot see where NOT to attack.)  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  06:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

   Re: Survivors often hide in ruins. See Grim's guide to surviving. BoboTalkClown 17:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Non-author reply. --Z. slay3r •  Talk  23:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

3. Kill - I'd vote keep, if this only prevented you from seeing them on the outside.--'BP^Tmz 07:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Change - make it so that this only applies from the street, not inside, otherwise there is no way to know if you are going to end up outside when you try to freerun -- boxy ^{talk • i} 07:03 20 January 2008 (BST)

   So don't free-run into un-known buildings when you only have 1 or 2 AP left. For 2 AP, you can always re-enter the ruined building and return to the building you just left. Just do something else besides free-running with your last 2 AP, like loading your guns.  Swiers 15:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

5. Change - Should people be so blind as to be unaware that Ridleybank is in zombie control from the street? I disagree with Boxy completely. Zombies are going to be nerfed even more with that kind of suggestion. Restrict it to being unable to identify ruined buildings from within other buildings instead. Alternatively or simultaneously, introduce a skill that allows zombies to identify ruined buildings. ~Ariedartin • Talk • A KS J abt all 07:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Kill - I have to disagree with you on a major point. You said, quote, "most of the time, a simple 1 AP ransack would be equally effective, as it is no easier to repair." This is simply not true, because of the 20% encumberance toolbox that I have to carry around "just in case." That's the size of a shotgun and four extra shells. Or 10 Necrotech syringes. And so forth... multiply that by the number of toolbox wielding survivors and you can see that ruin is actually a good thing for zombies to have even if it's just a deterrent. --Uncle Bill 10:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Kill - i just think this is a terrible idea --Scotw 10:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
8. Kill/Change - as boxy. --~~~~ [talk] 10:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Kill You think wouldn't easily be able to see if the building next to yours was ruined? I'm sure I'd notice if my neighbour's house was broken open and smashed up. From the outside you would definitely be able to see if a building was ruined.--DI Sweeny 12:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

   You'd think you'd notice if a building had boards and furniture blocking every entrance and window, but barricades can't be seen from a distance, nor can open / closed doors, nor ransacks.  Swiers 23:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

10. Kill As Bill.Studoku 15:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Kill - will change to keep if you can notice ruins from outside--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 16:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
12. Kill - As everything above. --Private Mark 18:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
13. Change - Ruined buildings should be noticeable in the minimap from the Streets, but not from the inside. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{[cloned] [mod]} 19:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
14. Kill - This would just increase confusion. --Heretic144 19:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
15. Kill/Change - You should be able to notice it if you are outside a building (not neccesarily on the same block, but just outside in general) --Ciaran Deckardson 19:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
16. Kill - Hmm, would increase confusion a lot and leave survivors unexpectedly outside. Acoustic Pie 23:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
17. Kill - It makes more sense if you just couldn't see what was ruined from the inside of a building. --Z. slay3r •  Talk  23:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
18. kill - If I can see that my neighbors yard hasnt been mowed, I can surely see a building that has broken windows, stuff falling out the door, and that a wall is collapsed. doc crook 01:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
19. Kill - Im selfish, I love the flavor, nothing saids zed territory more then a wave of straight ruin.--Zach016 02:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
20. Kill - This reminds me of some of the old unpopular 'free-running randomly fails' suggestions, although this one is an improvement since it's based on an actual zombie action and not the RNG. Still, from a survivor's perspective, they would be free-running around when free-running would fail randomly on them and there's nothing they could have done about it. That sounds not fun to me. --Toejam 03:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
21. Kill - Hate voting kill on this one since I believe Ruin must receive some sort of buff. But making ruined buildings look the same as others on the minimap will take away flavor. I am looking forward to a more radical change, like disabling free running out of a ruined building. -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 09:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

    Its flavor that harms game play, in terms of zombies not wanting to use the ability. Its also fairly arbitrary flavor- why see ruins at a distance, and not barricades, or open doors? So yes, while I agree that having ruins on the map is visually appealing, I think its turned out not to be good flavor.  Swiers 18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

22. Kill - Something about dark grey and red just tickles my fancy. --Vandurn 19:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
23. Kill -I have to agree with Zach016 its just sends a wave of panic when I'm in a ruined burb as far as the eye can see.--MobileSuitPilot 15:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
24. Kill - I'm not feeling this, unfortunately. While there's some realism to this, I don't really see a problem with the current setup. --Diano 20:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - horribly nerfs survivors for no good reason (unless "I want to horribly nerf survivors for no good reason" is a good reason). --Funt Solo ^QT 11:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Spam - Incredibly, incredibly stupid. There's nothing wrong with the way it is just now. Just leave it as it is. -- Cheeseman ^W!RandomTalk 17:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Spam - There's nothing wrong with it now. Unnecessary dwarf to survivors and entirely unrealistic.--Kolechovski 22:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Spam As Funt. Omega 00:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Above. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 14:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Spam Adds absolutely nothing to the game at all, and actually makes it unfairly difficult for everyone. It must be a joke, right?Magnum Odus 16:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Spam - As so many above. --Hhal 16:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)