Suggestion:20080120 Ruin AP Change

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20080120 Ruin AP Change

Druuuuu ^OcTRR 19:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion type
Balance change

Suggestion scope
Ruined buildings, zombies, and survivors

Suggestion description
Among other issues, Ruin is a large zombie AP sink. Five AP to Ruin, and one AP to fix a zombie ability, a four AP difference in favor of the survivors.

One way to start to fix Ruin is to increase the AP needed to fix it. After a single Ransack, the option to Ruin is opened. The building can then be Ruined four times, and each Ruin would take two AP for any survivor with a toolbox to fix. Ransack, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin.

This would give Ruin a good start into becoming an actual ability worth using for zombies, eliminating one of the most blatant problems, the huge AP sink. This creates a three AP difference, in favor of the zombies.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep As a survivor Im sick of waving everyday at the same old ferals. It's supposed to be Urban Dead People. Lets make this thing harder. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Author Keep - Removing part of a nerf disguised as a buff. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 19:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Keep - As above. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 19:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Partial keep - Definately keep for the 2AP to ruin, not sure about the extra ruining.Studoku 20:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep - This would be a huge step towards making Ruin useful, and giving zombies the much-needed tools they need. - Grant 22:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Keep - anything that helps the undead gets my vote. game is just too easy for leveled up survivors now. --Tommaguzzi 22:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Keep - I know i've seen this before but **** it, it deserves to go in. @pdeq, it should be worth doing, its nice flavor to see.--Zach016 23:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
8. Keep - It may well be a dupe. It's still a good idea, so I do not care. --The Hierophant 01:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Keep - A zed equaliser is needed, badly. This may be a good start. - Iscariot 01:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
10. Keep - As a survivor, this does need to change. I would've thought 10 ap, but 8 is alright too. doc crook 01:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Keep Im thorougly sick of the "OMG! 16 encoumberance!" argument being used. 1: The tool box is not just used for fixing ruin, its used to fix generators and radio transmitters. 2: 16 encoumberance isnt all that much. You can still carry a bucketload of crap. Several pistols, a few shotties, a pile of ammo for each, a few FAK's, a flak, and maybe something else if you really feel like you need it. 3: You are by no means obligated to carry one, much like you arent obligated to cart around generators or fuel cans. If you dont want to carry one, fine, there are plenty of other people out there who will. 4: They arent that hard to find. If you really desperately want one, go to a mall. They are not an always item. They are a sometimes item. You just carry them around when you need one to do something, and otherwise dont use them. Its not like theres a fixed number in the game. Unless you are actively seeking out ruins to fix, i dont see the point in carrying one. OH EM GEE! A BUILDING IS RUINED! Who cares? A dumber survivor will fix it, and you can hide in any one of the other 6-7 thousand buildings in the game while thats happening, or you could, heavens forfend, hide in the ruin as zombies are unlikely to check it for tasty morsels! Ruin is a fucking awful addition to the game, this would make it worthwhile. You have Your barricades and headshots to suck up hideous amounts of our AP, we have nothing. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 01:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

    Barricades and headshots suck up hideous amounts of survivor AP as well. It takes hundreds of AP to gather ammuniton. It took 50 AP to fix 1 ruined building and get it back to VSB and find 8% of a load of ammo. --Cpt Masterson 18:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC) non-author re -- boxy ^{talk • i} 00:09 23 January 2008 (BST)

12. Keep - Much needed balance/improvement to Ransack. Also, makes a zed horde a threat, rather than an inconvenience. Also, keep for realism factors (logically, it would take a survivor longer to repair a building than it would for a zombie to ruin).  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  03:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
13. Keep - Meh. --  AHLGTG THE END IS ACTUALLY NIGH! 04:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
14. Keep - Damn stright. --_Ducis ^Dux_Sloth^Talk 04:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
15. Keep - A change to ruin is long due. -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 09:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
16. Keep - This shall do for me. Make ruin less of a stupid skill and more useful. Acoustic Pie 18:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
17. Keep - Ruining takes too much AP as is. ----Secruss^|Yak|Brahnz!|CGR|PKA||EMLN|Templates|RRF|RFTM|Crap|WHOZ||MU|GN|C2008||23:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
18. Keep – Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! (Well, technically only three…) ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 01:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
19. Keep – As The Grimch above --TouchingVirus 00:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
20. Keep – I'm all for balancing things out a bit. --Headwound Fairy 09:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
21. Always - Pardus 09:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
22. Keep - Death7 21:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
23. Keep - It makes no sense that it takes the same amount of time and effort (AP) to repair ruined building as it does to change the dial on the radio. Also makes no since that there's more AP involved in jamming a syringe into a zombie's neck than fixing a building. (Don't get me wrong there, I'm perfectly happy with more AP needed for reviving.) Requiring more AP for repairing damage goes a long way to rebalancing things. --_└^Frozen_┘^┌_Flame^┐ 19:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
24. Keep - Ruin is a joke, and Driaquer, none of that really is true, 1)Construction is a low level survivor skill, much like Free Running most every survivor in the game has it, toolboxes aren't difficult to find which make the encumbrance not an issue. 2)No, it doesn't, it partially blocks free running, and because of how that is done it doesn't actually do anything but serve as a self advertising entry point, which, by the way, fixed a problem survivors have had for ages, making sure people knew where the entry points were in their barricade plans. 3)Only pisses the whiny ones off, don't generalize like you know all survivors the smart survivors use ruin to their advantage and I'm very sure it doesn't piss them off.--Karek^maps?! 21:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
25. Keep - Favor the zombies! Playing as a zombie is boring! -Inky 04:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
26. Keep As above --Dipcup 15:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
27. Keep- Zombies need an advantage badly. --The Gecko PKer 02:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Kill Votes

1. Kill/Change It makes sense, but 8 AP to repair is about as unbalanced as before. Cut down the cost and you have my vote. --Ciaran Deckardson 19:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

   A 3 AP difference is not that unbalanced, especially since it is supposed to be a good thing for zombies. Plus, it takes much more effort to fix something than it does to break it. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 19:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

2. Kill - Not everything is just about costing x ap to do something and costing x ap to undo it. And if you don't think ruin is a good use of ap, then stop using it. --Pdeq^Talk* 21:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
3. kill - as pdeq --~~~~ [talk] 21:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Kill - It's fine as is. --Private Mark 23:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Kill - I don't think this is the way to fix the dilemma. --Z. slay3r •  Talk  00:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Kill - As pdeq--Mr E Hyde 02:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Kill - Toolboxes are still a pain. Make it so that a toolbox either lowers the AP cost or weighs less. --Heretic144 04:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

   Kill - Humans still have to spend ap to first clear a building before fixing it and if you dont want your buildings fixed that easily sleep in them that solves your ap problem easy. Pvt human Incorrectly signed vote struck. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 21:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

   This is a pretty bad argument. Zombies have to clear a building before ruining it, too. Additionally, it is much easier to clear a building of zombies than it is to clear survivors, even before factoring in barricades. Try being a zombie sometime before using this argument again. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 19:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

8. Kill - As Pvt human. --Shazzelim 17:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Kill - Merely having the option to ruin is enough of a zombie advantage since it stops free running. It takes an AP to enter the ruined building since you can't free run it and another AP to fix it so it really takes 2 and not 1 AP plus it costs every survivor passing through and not repairing it an extra AP to pass through. You can argue it takes a lot of AP to kill a zombie and only 1 AP to stand up. Would you give up ankle grab to make survivor pay more to fix ruin? If you could repair a ruin for 5 AP without a toolbox and 2 AP with, then this would seem more reasonable. --Cpt Masterson 18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
10. Kill - Although i do believe that this needs to be changed, i am not convinced that 2ap to fix every ruin is the answer. --Scotw 18:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Kill -How many AP does a survivor take to gather up enough weapons and then kill a 60HP Zombie with a flak jacket inside a building that it has ruined? You already can make pinata's this is a horrible suggestion.--MobileSuitPilot 15:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
12. Kill - I hate to say it, but if Ruin is such a god-awful fucking addition to the game for both survivors or zombies (whatever side of the fence you are on), why not make a suggestion to remove it from the game? Instead of wasting time trying to convince or fix it, just get rid of it. --Ryiis 17:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
13. Kill - As many others, I think there's an imbalance currently, but I think your version just tips the scales in the other direction rather than righting the imbalance. --Diano 20:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
14. Kill GOD @#$%ING DAMNIT! Why must we fix balancing issues by tipping the scales the other way? WHY? Oh, and I like Ryiis' idea... just remove it altogether... XD ~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_? 05:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC) EDIT: BTW, here's three points as to WHY zombies should ruin: 1)Requires slightly more experienced survivors (toolbox); 2)BLOCKS FREERUNING; 3) Pisses Survivors Off ((~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_?))
15. Kill Playing as both a survivor and zombie, I find that ransack/ruin is pretty evenly balanced as is. This suggestion would change the current balance for an imbalance extremely favoring zombies. Normally this would just be annoying, but seeing as how we just received a change to the game that created an imbalance that extremely favors zombies, a suggestion like this is atrocious. Kill Kill Kill. --Nightforge 17:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
16. Kill - Attrition wars are generally boring. --Toejam 06:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
17. Kill - this will hinder the PKer cause--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 23:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
18. Kill - Ruin / ransack is fine as is. If a zombie stands in the ruined building (rather than moving away) it costs a survivor waaaaay more than 1 AP to fix the ruin. This suggestion would throw a significant free advantage to zombies. Kill please. --R33F3RM4N 14:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

Dupe - I agree it needs doing but I'm also certain it has been suggested before. There's no link cause I'm being lazy.--Karek^maps?! 20:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Since it's obvious no one is going to bother removing it and if they did someone would throw a bitch fest. I'm changing my vote.--Karek^maps?! 21:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Spam - 3 AP and 16% Encumbrance more for survivors? This suggestion could be accurately described as the same thing I am forced to carry around: a toolbox. --Themanwhocares4 21:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

   Dupe - of this. See talk page for reasoning. Thank you for your dupe vote, Karek, It gets added to mine! And aren't you glad I made your vote count? :P --Ms.Panes 10:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Note - trolling vote removed. That is obviously not a dupe of this suggestion -- boxy ^{talk • i} 10:46 21 January 2008 (BST)

2. Spam Dupe - Close enough. (It already is balanced. You just want the zombies to have an unfair advantage.) --Funt Solo ^QT 12:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

   That is similar, but not a dupe. This suggestion a reasonable progression (2AP per level of ruin, to a maximum of 8), and can be split between several characters, if need be, not a flat rate. This also changes Ruin to only require one Ransack. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 19:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

   Whatever - Spam, then. I'd vote Kill, but I doubt you'd revise this down to something balanced. --Funt Solo ^QT 23:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

3. Above. --Axe Hack Talk 14:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Spam - Ruin’s fine as it is. If it was so bad, zeds wouldn’t use it.--Kolechovski 17:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)