Talk:Suburb

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Reporting Guidelines

How to Update a Suburb Danger Report

First find the report you wish to update, you can search for it by typing "User:DangerReport/Suburb" in the search box. You can also find it listed in this category, just scroll to the bottom of the page. The is also a link listed on each suburb's page in the template on the right. It can be found just below the 9-suburb map.

You then need to change the |Danger= variable to one of the possible statuses. You can briefly explain the reason for the change in the edit summary. Longer explanations are best left on the page of the suburb in question under the news section, or on the suburb page under the reports section.

Example

Example User wants to change the danger level of Hollomstown from moderately dangerous to safe, since he has scouted that suburb and found almost no zombies outside, and no PKing activity was reported for some time.

Example User then goes to the Hollomstown page and follows this link: Update Hollomstown's Danger Level which leads to the danger report page for Hollomstown.

Now he changes the danger variable from |Danger=moderately dangerous to |Danger=safe

He can then note the change on the Hollomstown page in the news section. Or add a report on the Suburb page.

May 10th - No zombie or pking activity in this suburb. This suburb is now safe. --Example User 16:25, 13 August 2006 (BST)

If a suburb is deemed noteworthy, change |Notority=normal to |Notority=notable and this will bold the suburb's name on map output.

Reporting discussion

A disputed report

Moved from the main page

Lukinswood almost half the buildings are under zed control it should be dangerous --Zombieman 11 19:25, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

This report was completely fabricated. The suburb was no more ruined the day of the report than Zombieman 11 is a saint. This section is bullocks. ~ 04:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

i know it wasnt ruined but from a short scout alot of trp were zed homes not ruined yet--Zombieman 11 21:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Lukinswood doesn't have "alot" of TRPs. The few that it has were not recently broken into, either. Unless you are referring to The Coram Building (not technically a TRP) which has been subject to repeated zerg rushes for the last eight or nine months. Stop misleading people. In fact, stop using the Suburb page to post reports. It's retarded to keep posting reports there. Use the news section of the respective suburb pages or just update the damn danger level. ~ 01:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm moving this here since the report is clearly disputed and apparently with good reason. There's no sense in confusing people. —Aichon— 21:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Danger colors discussion

main article: Suburb/Color System Discussion

Noteworthy Suburbs

Simple Guidelines for Noteworthiness

For a suburb to be able to be called Noteworthy, important events on the history of Malton must have happened on it. The place where hordes were born, important sieges, or events that gained attention from the entire community.

• An important and unique event must have happened in the suburb

Events like Stanstock, the first and second sieges of Caiger Mall are nice examples of unique events that marked history. The first united the entire urban dead community, and the second and third were HUGE sieges where survivor-kind won against the hordes. Events like the Mall Tour and the Big Bash, on the other hand, doesn't make a suburb noteworthy, as several burbs took part of this event.

• An important and/or historical group was formed in that suburb

When a group manages to draw the attention of the entire community or influence the gameplay centers his actions around a burb of birth, that suburb can be called noteworthy. Examples of this are Ridleybank and Yagoton. The first is the infamous homeland of zombie-kind, homeland of the Ridleybank Resistance Front, while the second is the home of the Yagoton Revivification Clinic, the first and most famous group dedicated to revivification.

• A unique and noteworthy building exists in this suburb

This usually doesn't make a suburb noteworthy at all, unless important events on the history of Malton happened there. Resiting two huge sieges inside Caiger Mall make that unique building noteworthy, while having the only Zoo in the city isn't noteworthy as nothing important of note happened there.

Note that merely fitting in any of these categories doesn't automatically make a suburb noteworthy. It still needs the approval of the community. Nominate and discuss a suburb in the below header.

Nominations

I'd like to nominate Lukinswood for notable suburb status, due to it now containing the Emergency Brodcast system. --Tyl110 07:22, 29 August 2009 (BST)

Quoting the above criteria:

"A unique and noteworthy building exists in this suburb. This usually doesn't make a suburb noteworthy at all, unless important events on the history of Malton happened there."

While I can see the broadcast station drawing some sort of major event in the future, it's yet to host anything particularily noteworthy. As much as I'd like to see it get recognition, I'm not sure it warrants any (yet).--~ Red Hawk One ^{Talk | space for lease} 07:31, 29 August 2009 (BST)

I don't think anything is noteworthy other than Greater Ridleybank and the two suburbs with gatehouses, but Owsleybank is now more notable than Yagoton, Eastonwood, Pitneybank, or Shearbank, and thus meets the community standard, if not my own. --VVV ^RPMBG 05:18, 25 May 2010 (BST)

Pitneybank has a gatehouse (), but I'd think we need to wait and see. Owsleybank is a place where something big could happen. Right now though, I wouldn't say that anything worthy of a historical note on the map has happened yet. Hundreds of people gather every day in Creedy and/or Giddings, but thta's an everyday occurrence. Just because it happens in a different location than usual doesn't make it special, in and of itself. For now, I'm definitely of the "wait and see" mind. —Aichon— 07:18, 25 May 2010 (BST)

I'd like to nominate Owlseybank. As the location of the (failed) ESCAPE attempt, it certainly deserves some notice. Stanbury Village was given special notice for being the site of the Strike, in addition for being part of the territory of the RRF and all that. Unique event: ESCAPE, although not successful, was definitely this. Important/Historical Group: although it failed in its bid for the title of "historical," it was one of the largest survivor groups that Malton has seen for some time. In fact, it was stronger than the Dual Nature movement, the RRF, Feral Undead, and most of the other "important" groups out there. (Although it did get crushed, for a number of reasons.) Noteworthy building: the only attempt to get out of Malton was made in the railway station. I'd say that makes it noteworthy.--Sam 2334 22:01, 14 October 2010 (BST)

I'd disagree. On Strike resulted in literal game changes happening. ESCAPE? Not so much. Can you point to anything that has changed in terms of general thought or actual gameplay in the months since ESCAPE? Also, you conflate strength and size. —Aichon— 22:17, 14 October 2010 (BST)

In hindsight, Escape didn't make Owsleybank all that important. It's still just another suburb, even if there was a big event once upon a time. I'm not saying it shouldn't be remembered, but that the way to do it is by finishing up this page and nominating it as a historical event already. --VVV ^RPMBG 06:27, 15 October 2010 (BST)

The three qualifications for noteworthy suburb are satisfied by Roftwood. Through the existence of historical events and historical groups, it must be acknowledged that the suburb has had an effect on the community of Malton. For a more in depth report on a series of lectures hosted in a notable building, please visit the links provided at the Quartly Lecture Group. --Sir Fred of Etruria 02:50, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Ehh...I don't know. I wasn't around during Open Air, so I don't know how important it was to the community as a whole. Seems like it may have been historical, but perhaps only of significance to the locals, given that it was a local event that was intentionally avoiding attention (when it finally got attention, it fell apart, after all). And the horde you mentioned seems to have finished in Roftwood, but I don't see any ties to Roftwood like we do with Ridleybank and the RRF or Eastonwood and the Eastonwood Ferals. The QSG are definitely noteworthy (one of my favorite groups that I'm not in, in fact), but when you compare it against the other noteworthy suburbs, I just don't see Roftwood standing beside them as a peer. —Aichon— 04:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Lets have Kempsterbank as well. SFHNAS have outlived the EF and Extinction. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 17:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Dunell Hills

I would like to nominate Dunell Hills. With only 1 Necrotech building it is a place of hard fights between The Dead and DHPD. I also think the recent events (1400+ The Dead members) will make the history of this suburb even more interesting. Jelito2008 15:27, 15 April 2011 (BST)

Dunell Hills and the DMZ have been a fucking deathtrap for years now thanks to The Dead, even with the attention of one of the game's largest and oldest survivor groups and various others. And there have been a lot of attempts at retaking it. I'd say that with this in addition to its other history that it's definitely worthy of being marked notable. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 22:15, 15 April 2011 (BST)

Having myself once tried to reclaim that suburb, I concur. Even at their downtime with membership in the lower double digits, The Dead made it hard to make lasting progress (and it has been tried and tried). -- Spiderzed▋ 22:19, 15 April 2011 (BST)

Seems fair --Rosslessness 22:51, 15 April 2011 (BST)

yep The preceding signed comment was added by these amazing looking   

   bitch   23:38 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Where would we vote on Dunell Hills? --Karloth Vois ^¯\(°_o)/¯ 15:50, 3 May 2011 (BST)

Generally you don't. It seems pretty well accepted that the occupation of the Dead for a number of years has made Dunell Hills noteworthy as one of the deadliest places in Malton. Updating. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 16:21, 3 May 2011 (BST)

Looks good, cheers karek! --Karloth Vois ^¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:15, 3 May 2011 (BST)

I fixed it up a little. "Visit with caution" is a warning that is only applicable to survivors, after all, since zombies have free reign in the suburb last I checked. Also it's not the "home" of the Dead, it's merely where we came into being. The whole city is our playground. --カシュー, ザ ゾンビ クィーン (ビープ ビープ) @ 11:34, 4 May 2011 (BST)

k, what ever works. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 16:43, 4 May 2011 (BST)

General Discussion

Special formatting on group listings

During the Great Suburb Group Massacre, I've noticed some groups using the code for big text (<big></big>) and bolding (<b></b> or ''' '''.) I know that code has been historically used for alliances, but does anyone object to me removing that code when it's individual groups that are using it? Linkthewindow  Talk  07:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There's no reason for any groups to be using additional markup to give themselves undue prominence. The bold/big combo was just used to show the name of organisations with their member groups underneath. It's there to to help people navigate, nothing more. The recommended guidelines are well documented on the template page. All group listings should conform accordingly. --  RoosterDragon  17:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Updating the DangerMap System

This is probably the most updated system of any we have. It's not the easiest to update though and could also do with some other minor tweaks. So here's a few suggestions I'd like some discussion/agreement on before changes are made. Each of these points is independent of the others.

1. Change the code on all 100 suburb danger reports to this.
This is intended to:

• Make it easier for users to update the map correctly by providing the options, with a legend and an example on page so they can tell what the change is as soon as the page saves. This also makes errors dead easy to spot.
• Prevent confusion when using the special/map variations by making it an option the average user will not need to edit.
• Provide flexibility for other pieces of coding by allowing the techie types to call their own formatting templates.
• Make it easier to provide instructions by adding it in a template.

Other notes:

• The current map templates would be renamed to something more explanatory, since the user needs no longer know the name.
  Proposed: "DangerMapNotorietyStatus" where Notoriety would either be 'normal' or 'notable' and Status would be the status.
• After a quick inclusion limit test, I found this code would not endanger any existing templates and force them over the limit. The pre-expand include size, the important one, was unchanged between the current template and the code above. Post-expand and template arguments went up, but these are not factors towards the limit.
• Note: The link on the test page, "2", will link to the suburb when actually used, and not a red page.

2. Change the available status text to one form of English. EG: 'safe' 'moderately dangerous' 'dangerous' 'very dangerous' and 'abandoned'/'a ghost town'

• To allow text based status to be shown, such as in tooltips, without odd English. 'Havercroft is safe' works now, 'Havercroft is moderate' does not.
• For the sake of being uniform.

3. Change the suburb border colour and unify it with the block border colour
Proposed: A darker shade of grey for the cell border and fill. Not as dark as the block one, somewhere in-between probably.

• This makes it easy to distinguish from the ghost town colour at a glance.
• Making the colours the same is a sensible thing to do.

--  RoosterDragon  19:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

All good. But do we need a separate danger report for notorious suburbs? Really? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

You mean you want to get rid of the 'special' status that gives bold text for such suburbs? That's another discussion. Anyway I'm going to go ahead and implement No.3 since it's not particularly major and easy to revert. 1 and 2 will happen in a few more days in some discussion doesn't show up between now and then. --  RoosterDragon  12:50, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you explain to me in practical terms how this will be easier to use than the original? I still don't get it. Regardless, I am for a change in this system, and if you want I'll help change the templates for you. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 13:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

You get to see the output as soon as you save, so spotting a wrong status or total muck up is easy. The legend gives you a list of available statuses and their meanings on site so you don't have to trawl around to check what they are (Great for the new guys). If the available statuses change or definitions are adjusted, they can be propagated by template in one edit rather than 100. That's about it for the updating user, but the coding bunch can make the template work for them even more. Right now you're stuck to just using the table info the template gives, the new one can allow you to actually use the status to work for you allowing you to reference images or other pages or output text strings or all sorts without resorting to switch hackery which inflates the template cost of the system needlessly and also breaks if anybody changes the colour definitions, even just a little. --  RoosterDragon  13:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Right well, it's been done. I'm still darting about the wiki updating documentation and keeping an eye out for broken maps. Seems to have gone smoothly for the most part. --  RoosterDragon  16:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Other Maps

Needs to me morphed into a template. It shouldn't have been added in that manner in the first place and compromises the readability of the page. --Karek^maps?! 08:00, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Map Errors

Anyone else noticed how inaccurate the maps are becoming since they started basing them on EMR reports instead of eyewitnesses? EMR is a poor indicator of danger level. I think the overall accuracy level has gone down, although at least they all get updated regularly ... even if it is with bad info. -- Grogh 02:49, 11 May 2009 (BST)

The EMR system is the best we've got for suburbs like Miltown and Greentown were there are very few eyewitnesses around that update the wiki. Sure, it's not perfect, but unlike eyewitnesses, it's completely neutral.

By the way, if you've got information, stop complaining and go ahead and update it :P Linkthewindow  Talk  08:19, 11 May 2009 (BST)

No one said you can't edit a map based on eyewitness reports, unless it was while I was away. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 10:06, 11 May 2009 (BST)

I agree a scout (particularly of the detail NecroWatch provides) will always outdo an EMR, there's just not the detail in the EMR, but they make a good general indicator for keeping the maps recent. Recent, if patchy, data is always preferable to outdated information. The only way 'accuracy' of the levels could degrade was if people were using the EMRs as a definitive yardstick despite recent news suggesting otherwise. --  RoosterDragon  16:43, 22 May 2009 (BST)

Report cycling

Why a month? I don't think we would miss much if we changed it to 2 weeks. Not only is this underused as a source of information when compared to individual suburb pages, but most news would be out of date within a week or so anyway. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 13:40, 16 May 2009 (BST)

Would anyone like to discuss this? If not, 2 weeks from now, I'll change it to 2 weeks. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 08:15, 18 May 2009 (BST)

Silence implies consent, in most cases. I don't have a problem with it. Linkthewindow  Talk  08:23, 18 May 2009 (BST)

Silence implies no one was alerted, it's being readded and going to see use. If you see something not getting activity step one is to actually encourage activitiy and this page and it's news played a major role in the game's community when it actually saw use. It's the easy access high visibility way to get the pulse of the game. You're both fail for not having really discussed this at all >_>.--Karek^maps?! 09:21, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Get off ma wikiz! --xoxo 09:27, 21 July 2009 (BST)

is there a reason why...

the south doesn't seem to get as much action as the northern suburbs? Im just curious, cause all the major battles all happened in the upper half of the map. --Mikalos209 01:14, 17 August 2010 (BST)

Geographic tenancies. Predicting zombie movement and survivor resistance is an art. Most people, including myself, agree that the South is more survivor friendly. But the reason is anyone's guess. Let's look at the layout of malls, shall we? You may notice that they group together. Treweeke stands alone, it would be difficult to repair, due to it's distance from other malls, and thus leaves the extreme NE vulnerable. The majority of the Malls form a diagonal vein from the NW to SE corners. This includes the so-called Survivor Security Zone, and the 5 mall loop that includes Caiger. While this would logically mean safety, Malls attract the extremes of the local situation; They're the first building ruined and the first repaired. So the massive dead-zone around Greater Ridleybank spreads though these, with feral ripples hitting even the farthest of the collection. The easiest to defend mall clusters are Marven-Tompson and Pole-Buckley. They're well out of the way of the zombie homeland, invulnerable from feral ripples from a few malls over, and two must be toppled before the complex can fall. Thus the SW and mid-south are easiest to maintain a steady supply to, making them safest for living. However, there are many things which I have not considered; The reputation of an area (it's funner to ruin Caiger than Buckley), local groups (pro-life groups in the South seem to last longer and hold better relations), and local survivor intelligence (or lack thereof) also have an effect. No one can ever fully understand the beautiful display of the danger maps over time, but I encourage you to try. Unless you're pro-life, in which case I'd prefer you die. --VVV ^RPMBG 04:38, 17 August 2010 (BST)

I love being able to legitimately plug my own video [1]! --

 

 

 

 

05:30, 17 August 2010 (BST)

Group in notorious suburb info

why is the kilt store mentioned on this page? what the hell have they done to warrant any special attention?----sexualharrison ¯\()/¯ 22:38, 18 October 2010 (BST)

+1 --VVV ^RPMBG 23:05, 18 October 2010 (BST)

Good call. Removed. If they get into Cat:HG later then they might consider adding themselves back at that time. —Aichon— 23:11, 18 October 2010 (BST)

Suggesting change in danger level

Can we put in a rule for the suburb reports that they shouldn't suggest changes to the danger level and should instead just do it themselves? We can easily provide a link to the instructions for changing it at the top of this page, but the fact that almost every report that comes in says, "Suggest change to X danger level" is ludicrous. Just change it, people! Don't suggest it! —Aichon— 20:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Why is that section even there? ~ 21:02, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That's an even better question than what I had. Since we have reports on every single suburb page, it seems like these are all redundant. About the only good use I could think of for it would be to post the locations of the hordes as they move around, but the hordes all post their locations in other ways, so this section is essentially useless. —Aichon— 22:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, its useless. Just doing a precursory search of the history for that section, it's just like you said; it is only used by people to suggest changing such and such suburb to such and such danger level. It doesn't appear that those suggestion are ever taken to heart, either. Reports are rarely updated based on news in this section from what I can tell. Hell, suburb news is rarely even updated with this info from this section. I say eliminate the section, or replace the rules with instructions for updating Danger levels. ~ 22:28, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 22:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of changes to this section of the Suburb page, would anyone be opposed to the idea of placing links to the suburb danger level pages instead of just instructions on how to update them. The links could be stealthexternal so that it goes directly to the edit page for each suburb's danger update page (for example Eastonwood). I'm thinking a table of ten by ten alphabetically listed suburb names. This would make it so much easier than clicking on the suburb name, then clicking on the update danger level link, then clicking edit~ 07:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is what I had in mind

Barrville Brooke Hills Brooksville Buttonville Chancelwood Chudleyton Crooketon Crowbank Dakerstown Danversbank Dartside Darvall Heights Dentonside Dulston Dunell Hills Dunningwood Earletown East Becktown East Boundwood East Grayside

Eastonwood Edgecombe Foulkes Village Fryerbank Galbraith Hills Gatcombeton Gibsonton Greentown Grigg Heights Gulsonside Havercroft Heytown Hollomstown Houldenbank Huntley Heights Jensentown Judgewood Kempsterbank Ketchelbank Kinch Heights

Lamport Hills Lerwill Heights Lockettside Lukinswood Millen Hills Miltown Mockridge Heights Molebank Mornington New Arkham Nixbank North Blythville Old Arkham Osmondville Owsleybank Pashenton Paynterton Peddlesden Village Pegton Pennville

Penny Heights Peppardville Pescodside Pimbank Pitneybank Quarlesbank Raines Hills Randallbank Reganbank Rhodenbank Richmond Hills Ridleybank Roachtown Roftwood Rolt Heights Roywood Ruddlebank Santlerville Scarletwood Shackleville

Shearbank Shore Hills Shuttlebank South Blythville Spicer Hills Spracklingbank Stanbury Village Starlingtown Tapton Tollyton Vinetown West Becktown West Boundwood West Grayside Whittenside Williamsville Wray Heights Wyke Hills Wykewood Yagoton

The thought also occurred to me to format it like so:

Barrville danger - news Brooke Hills danger - news Brooksville danger - news Buttonville danger - news Chancelwood danger - news Chudleyton danger - news Crooketon danger - news Crowbank danger - news Dakerstown danger - news Danversbank danger - news Dartside danger - news Darvall Heights danger - news Dentonside danger - news Dulston danger - news Dunell Hills danger - news Dunningwood danger - news Earletown danger - news East Becktown danger - news East Boundwood danger - news East Grayside danger - news

Eastonwood danger - news Edgecombe danger - news Foulkes Village danger - news Fryerbank danger - news Galbraith Hills danger - news Gatcombeton danger - news Gibsonton danger - news Greentown danger - news Grigg Heights danger - news Gulsonside danger - news Havercroft danger - news Heytown danger - news Hollomstown danger - news Houldenbank danger - news Huntley Heights danger - news Jensentown danger - news Judgewood danger - news Kempsterbank danger - news Ketchelbank danger - news Kinch Heights danger - news

Lamport Hills danger - news Lerwill Heights danger - news Lockettside danger - news Lukinswood danger - news Millen Hills danger - news Miltown danger - news Mockridge Heights danger - news Molebank danger - news Mornington danger - news New Arkham danger - news Nixbank danger - news North Blythville danger - news Old Arkham danger - news Osmondville danger - news Owsleybank danger - news Pashenton danger - news Paynterton danger - news Peddlesden Village danger - news Pegton danger - news Pennville danger - news

Penny Heights danger - news Peppardville danger - news Pescodside danger - news Pimbank danger - news Pitneybank danger - news Quarlesbank danger - news Raines Hills danger - news Randallbank danger - news Reganbank danger - news Rhodenbank danger - news Richmond Hills danger - news Ridleybank danger - news Roachtown danger - news Roftwood danger - news Rolt Heights danger - news Roywood danger - news Ruddlebank danger - news Santlerville danger - news Scarletwood danger - news Shackleville danger - news

Shearbank danger - news Shore Hills danger - news Shuttlebank danger - news South Blythville danger - news Spicer Hills danger - news Spracklingbank danger - news Stanbury Village danger - news Starlingtown danger - news Tapton danger - news Tollyton danger - news Vinetown danger - news West Becktown danger - news West Boundwood danger - news West Grayside danger - news Whittenside danger - news Williamsville danger - news Wray Heights danger - news Wyke Hills danger - news Wykewood danger - news Yagoton danger - news

So that you get suburb link, edit link to danger report and link to suburb news. Thoughts? ~ 15:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I like it. Seems a bit clunky, but I can't think of anything better off the top of my head. —Aichon— 23:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What if we put tiny letter-links, like Wikipedia does on it's navigation templates, right on the dangermap? Like so: Wyke Hills^{u n} --VVV ^RPMBG 02:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I'd prefer that, but this is for wikinewbs, keep in mind. They'd have no clue about it and would just ignore them. —Aichon— 03:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

What about links below the burb name, like this? Maybe even adding BIC (using the new BIC pages of course).

Wykewood BIC - news - danger Yagoton BIC - news - danger

~ 22:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I had actually been considering something like that as a compromise (I assume we're talking about putting it on the map, right?), but it seems like it's then too much to add to the map. The problem is, I wouldn't cut any of those three, since they're all useful to have links to. It might be worth mocking up to see how it looks though. It'd certainly be more utilitarian, and it wouldn't eat up half the page with additional links. —Aichon— 22:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't considering putting them on the map, though I know its been suggested and I could see the benefit from it. What I'm suggesting is that this goes in the section currently labeled Danger Reports along with some sort of preamble or instructions for updating news and danger. As far as mocking up, I am traveling at the moment and just realized I don't have Excel on my new laptop. Unless someone else wants to take over for now, it'll have to wait until after the new year. ~ 23:41, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

So it'd be a slight redo of the thing you posted? I see that as better than what we have, but not ideal still. It'd be best if we could work it into the map, but doing that in a sensible way is what's difficult. Maybe we can defer this until after New Year, since I'm guessing others might want to chime in but aren't because of the holidays. —Aichon— 01:47, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and mocked something up. Personally I think it looks a bit cluttered but I can see it as something I could get used to since it's so much more user-friendly. At the very least, I'd like to have it added to the list of maps at the bottom of the Suburb page.

Dakerstown news - BIC - danger	Jensentown news - BIC - danger	Quarlesbank news - BIC - danger	West Boundwood news - BIC - danger	East Boundwood news - BIC - danger	Lamport Hills news - BIC - danger	Chancelwood news - BIC - danger	Earletown news - BIC - danger	Rhodenbank news - BIC - danger	Dulston news - BIC - danger
Roywood news - BIC - danger	Judgewood news - BIC - danger	Gatcombeton news - BIC - danger	Shuttlebank news - BIC - danger	Yagoton news - BIC - danger	Millen Hills news - BIC - danger	Raines Hills news - BIC - danger	Pashenton news - BIC - danger	Rolt Heights news - BIC - danger	Pescodside news - BIC - danger
Peddlesden Village news - BIC - danger	Chudleyton news - BIC - danger	Darvall Heights news - BIC - danger	Eastonwood news - BIC - danger	Brooke Hills news - BIC - danger	Shearbank news - BIC - danger	Huntley Heights news - BIC - danger	Santlerville news - BIC - danger	Gibsonton news - BIC - danger	Dunningwood news - BIC - danger
Dunell Hills news - BIC - danger	West Becktown news - BIC - danger	East Becktown news - BIC - danger	Richmond Hills news - BIC - danger	Ketchelbank news - BIC - danger	Roachtown news - BIC - danger	Randallbank news - BIC - danger	Heytown news - BIC - danger	Spracklingbank news - BIC - danger	Paynterton news - BIC - danger
Owsleybank news - BIC - danger	Molebank news - BIC - danger	Lukinswood news - BIC - danger	Havercroft news - BIC - danger	Barrville news - BIC - danger	Ridleybank news - BIC - danger	Pimbank news - BIC - danger	Peppardville news - BIC - danger	Pitneybank news - BIC - danger	Starlingtown news - BIC - danger
Grigg Heights news - BIC - danger	Reganbank news - BIC - danger	Lerwill Heights news - BIC - danger	Shore Hills news - BIC - danger	Galbraith Hills news - BIC - danger	Stanbury Village news - BIC - danger	Roftwood news - BIC - danger	Edgecombe news - BIC - danger	Pegton news - BIC - danger	Dentonside news - BIC - danger
Crooketon news - BIC - danger	Mornington news - BIC - danger	North Blythville news - BIC - danger	Brooksville news - BIC - danger	Mockridge Heights news - BIC - danger	Shackleville news - BIC - danger	Tollyton news - BIC - danger	Crowbank news - BIC - danger	Vinetown news - BIC - danger	Houldenbank news - BIC - danger
Nixbank news - BIC - danger	Wykewood news - BIC - danger	South Blythville news - BIC - danger	Greentown news - BIC - danger	Tapton news - BIC - danger	Kempsterbank news - BIC - danger	Wray Heights news - BIC - danger	Gulsonside news - BIC - danger	Osmondville news - BIC - danger	Penny Heights news - BIC - danger
Foulkes Village news - BIC - danger	Ruddlebank news - BIC - danger	Lockettside news - BIC - danger	Dartside news - BIC - danger	Kinch Heights news - BIC - danger	West Grayside news - BIC - danger	East Grayside news - BIC - danger	Scarletwood news - BIC - danger	Pennville news - BIC - danger	Fryerbank news - BIC - danger
New Arkham news - BIC - danger	Old Arkham news - BIC - danger	Spicer Hills news - BIC - danger	Williamsville news - BIC - danger	Buttonville news - BIC - danger	Wyke Hills news - BIC - danger	Hollomstown news - BIC - danger	Danversbank news - BIC - danger	Whittenside news - BIC - danger	Miltown news - BIC - danger

Do we need an Open Discussion to get more opinions about the proposed change? ~ 05:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I rather like it and would likely bookmark it instead of the danger report, but I suspect others may not, and your suggestion of merely linking it might not be a bad idea. Personally, I'm inclined to say "no" on the Open Discussion, since any stakeholder of this page should already be watching it or checking RC, and Open Discussions just slows decisions and invites delays and poor critiques from uninvolved/uninformed individuals, but that's just me (can you tell I'm not a big fan of Open Discussion for design changes and decisions that should be handled by knowledgeable people with a vested interest?). Also, it looks like all of the bolded suburbs (the noteworthy ones) line wrap with those words. Not a problem, but just pointing it out. —Aichon— 06:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I like this map.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 13:28, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I fixed the bolded links, templatespaced the map and added it to the list of "Other Maps". So that just leaves the original question: what to do about the section labeled "Danger Levels" on the Suburb page? ~ 17:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

It's time to get rid of it, I think (and it's "Suburb Danger Report", incidentally). —Aichon— 22:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

NPOV Suburb Levels

Since we're on this NPOV kick with the SuburbGroups template, we may as well tackle the notoriously biased Danger Reports. These reports go from "Safe" to "Very Dangerous". Now lets see..."safe" for who? Pro-Survivors of course! Probably not so "safe" for zombies though, not unless they want to get headshot every day and somehow consider that "safe". Now "very dangerous" for who? You get the idea. So in the spirit of "NPOV" how about we go on a new scale:

Cell	Level	Description
	Survivor Controlled	Zombie break-ins rare, Survivors hold practically the entire suburb.
	Survivor Advantaged	Daily Zombie break-ins, but Survivors hold most buildings.
	Contested	Many buildings ruined, ransacked or inhabited by Zombies but Survivors hold a significant area of control.
	Zombie Advantaged	Zombies inside most resource buildings, with small pockets of Survivor holdouts.
	Zombie Controlled	Most buildings wide open or Zombie inhabited, Survivors hold little to no ground.
	A Ghost Town	At least 2/3rds of the suburb's buildings empty of Survivors or Zombies.

--

| T | BALLS! | 15:47 13 February 2011(UTC)

I second this, and third it. I've wanted to see something like this implemented for a long time, and this seems the best exeuction of it. 19:08, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

It's more precise as well. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Ghost town needs rewording slightly, to explained the ruinous nature. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Looks good.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not too keen on the exact wording (it seems a little clunky to me) but I'd say something like this can work. ~ Red Hawk One ^{Talk | space for lease} 19:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the green for Survivor Controlled and Survivor Advantaged are too similar. And I'm not too keen on creating more sublevels when there is already a lot of confusion between yellow and orange - I'd rather leave it at Survivor Advantage/Contested/Zombie Advantage using the three traffic light colours, with Ghost Town as odd man out in grey. Other than that, I agree that the system has to become more NPOV. -- Spiderzed▋ 19:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

As a firm believer in localised zombie groups, I quite like survivor advantaged. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

How about percentages? Just for example - Survivor Controlled: 90% harman, Survivor Advantaged: 65% harman, Contested: 50%, and vice versa. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

God thats terrible. 90% of what? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Survivor controlled versus zombie controlled? Or keep with numbers like what we have now e.g. 50+ zombies, or 50+ survivors. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

How are you defining survivor controlled? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

By numbers of survivor versus number of zombies. When that reaches close to 50%, it's contested, and when it reaches one extreme or another its controlled or advantaged or whatever. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 20:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. Kind of makes it hard to update the wiki if you're a zombie. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:08, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Or buildings ruined or buildings open. It's always going to be harder if you're a zombie because zombies can't freerun. Defining the suburb levels is little vague with what has been proposed.--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 20:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

As Spider, I'd go with a different color than using two greens. Maybe a background of #bdf with a border of #3df (it looks better when used in his table above than it does right here), with the shade of green we're currently using getting bumped to the second level instead of being the first one?

As for the names and the wording, the idea is sound, but it needs a little tweaking, I'd suggest that the definitions be along the lines of intact and lit, mostly intact with sparse ruins, pockets of ruins and frequent break-ins, mostly ruined with sparse repairs, entirely ruined, and then ghost town. I think that by pairing pockets of ruins with break-ins and not mentioning break-ins until that far down, we'll avoid some controversy that I've seen in the past, where zombies want to move things to the current yellow level because they break into 1-2 buildings each day, even though they are getting repelled and their work is undone on a daily basis. Also, mentioning break-ins there and not earlier gives hordes an obvious level that they can set a suburb to when they first move in, that way others can see that something is happening in the suburb, even if it's not wrecked yet. Also, I wouldn't use the term "Contested", since you can bet that as soon as some asshat moves into a suburb to fight the incumbents (this applies both ways, incidentally), they will say that it is contested, even if they're making no noticeable impact on the suburb. And we can't touch Ghost Town, since, as I recall, it is dictated by policy or something.

Finally, someone needs to ping Rooster on this if he hasn't been pinged already. We'll need to get his input on the technical side of things, since this sort of change will require, at a bare minimum, changes to around 105 templates that I can think of off the top of my head, and potentially many more that I don't recall immediately. He would know better, but some of the templates actually depend on having the current names for the danger levels being used, so if you were to change the wording of the level names, you'd have to move or create additional templates as well. Plus, these changes would break at least one of his bots too. —Aichon— 21:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I demand these changes be implemented immediately without consulting Rooster for the sole pupose of seeing how much chaos his bots cause!--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 21:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I can see about test boarding some of the ideas to see if they work. As for implementation, who needs ab ot when you have a Ctrl, c, and v button? ~ Red Hawk One ^{Talk | space for lease} 23:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that its about damn time this is implemented. Blue instead of green would be nice. As Aichon, maybe keep it more break-in oriented instead of zombie/survivor controlled oriented (although that may be difficult for people to grasp at first since it is diametrically opposed to the current system). Am I the only one that thinks "Advantaged" is an ugly word? Its proper, but just looks and sounds awful in my opinion. I think just "Advantage" conveys the same meaning and isn't as grating. Maybe I'm just being a grammarphile. ~ 06:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Less break-in oriented, and more ruin/repair oriented, actually, since it's quantifiable. The mention of break-ins with the current system is actually a source of controversy, as I mentioned. I seem to recall arguing about it with zeug a year or two back when he and I almost got into an edit war over Judgewood. And people already think in terms of ruins now, but there are so many numbers and ambiguous terms in the definitions that people can shift things around pretty willy nilly. Making it solely or mostly based on ruins and less on zed vs. survivor numbers just seems like it's less open to problems. —Aichon— 07:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The Acid Test for any suburb danger system is Kempsterbank. I look forward to your proposals. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:45, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Since its such a subjective thing we're trying to categorize, there will always be controversy / drama, but I like Aichon's idea for minimizing it. Also agree with Vapor on Advantage vs. Advantaged. I think I would like to see: Survivor Control, Survivor Advantage, Stalemate, Zombie Advantage, Zombie Control, Ghost Town. --Zarneverfike 05:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I actually started out with those in mind (except Stalemate) but changed it because of the way people generally talk about Suburbs, as in: "This Suburb is Very Dangerous". "This Suburb is Survivor Advantage" sounded clumsy to me so I changed them a bit to reflect how the terms would probably most often be used when describing a Suburb.--

| T | BALLS! | 15:13 16 February 2011(UTC)

Cell	Level	Description
	Survivor Fortress	At least 90% of buildings are Repaired.
	Survivor Stronghold	At least 70% of buildings are Repaired.
	Battleground	Ratio of Ruined/Ransacked buildings to Repaired buildings is 69% / 29% either way.
	Zombie Ruin	At least 70% of buildings are Ruined/Ransacked.
	Zombie Wasteland	At least 90% of buildings are Ruined/Ransacked.
	A Ghost Town	At least 2/3rds of the suburb's buildings empty of Survivors or Zombies.

More Ruin/Repair based. I didn't mess around with Ghost Towns. Maybe someone has some better ideas on that one.--

| T | BALLS! | 14:50 16 February 2011(UTC)

Question: What if 70% or 90% of the buildings are ruined/ransacked, but at least 2/3rds of the suburb buildings are empty of survivors or zombies? Which level would it be? It would be meet both criteria. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 00:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I imagine Ghost Town takes precedence. 00:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Why change the names to POV/rhetoric strangeness? I liked the wording further above. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 00:42, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

With the shift of focus to Ruins/Repairs I just thought these names reflected that better. It's not POV in any way that Safe/Dangerous is. Instead of subjectively judging whether a burb is "safe" or "dangerous" its objectively judging the state of its infrastructure. Seems pretty NPOV to me. But whatever, either way works for me.--

| T | BALLS! | 01:03 17 February 2011(UTC)

As much as this change is needed, and I like this latest version as a gauge between zombies/pro-survivors, this danger level still ignores PKer threats. Add something (like black stripes, or some such) that can be added to any of the existing colors signifying a very significant PKer presence. Given that PKer attacks have emptied entire suburbs in the past, this might even be relevant for Ghost Towns. --DT^PK 01:12, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, I just don't like the "stronghold" and "fortress" stuff, it seems a little trenchie. Some may say the example higher up is sterile, but IMO it's a better option. If worst comes to worst, either do what you think (since you're doing the work) or just have a vote, either way's good. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 01:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Append "PK" to each status and let that replace the border with a black one instead, to signify mass PKing or an organised PKer event like Silent Night, etc. Also, I think "Survivor held", "Contested" and "Zombie held" would work best, though in a five-tier system there obviously needs to be another term too. "Controlled" for the stronger level, and "held" for the weaker level? 01:36, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I foresee a "PK" status indicator being very problematic. Its like trying to count survivors vs. zombies in a suburb, but even worse because PKers can be completely anonymous. Also, whether there is a big Pk event, or just a small group of PKers moving into an area, the PK status will be changed, thus negating its usefulness. Further, most PK attacks and events are concentrated in malls, forts, etc. While those attacks would effect the safety of the particular large buildings, they wouldn't necessarily mean the the whole suburb was subject to PK attacks. --Zarneverfike 02:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I was really taken with Aichon's Ruin/Repair focus, since its easy for both Zombies and Survivors to judge, rather than the population thing. So it's hard to work PKers into that. Not that I don't sympathize. Have to think on it. Survivor Held/Controlled(Dominated?) could work but that leans us back into more of a population thing. We could just drop all reference to Survivors/Zombies and name them after the Infrastructure entirely. Get rid of Fortress/Stronghold (that's pretty population focused too) and go with descriptions of the buildings status. Intact, Dilapidated, Devastated, etc. In that case Ghost Town could probably be dropped all together. Of course this all could lead to some wildly complicated things like multiple maps, one for infrastructure, another for population, etc.--

| T | BALLS! | 12:53 17 February 2011(UTC)

This really. Building status rather than "control" is more NPOV, and less prone to edit wars probably. Otherwise, you will get haggling back on and forth as "Survivor Fortress"" and "Zombie Wasteland" are loaded terms. I would shy away from "Zombie" or "Survivor" based names as well.-MHSstaff 17:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I like ZL's suggestions and would work off of those ideas. Maybe something like Unscathed, Mostly Intact, Damaged, Mostly Ruined, Destroyed. As long as we quantify those, it should take most of the opinion out of things and leave it mostly up to scouting and observation in-game. Getting them to correspond to specific EMR would be nice as well, that way bots and folks that are distant can do something useful with the information. —Aichon— 07:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

If you want a truly neutral way to classify the danger in a suburb, you should base them off the info supplied in external military reports. They arn't really done often enough to give a day by day account, but at least you will have the occasional report for each suburb to give an accurate, and undeniable snapshot. Others can fight about percentages in between the EMR's, but at least you'll have somewhere solid to start at -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 01:42 17 February 2011 (BST)

Never paid much attention to those things. I do sometimes get annoyed with people 20 suburbs away updating a suburb I'm familiar with when they have no on the ground evidence to support their update(more often than not they are not all that accurate). However, I'll research the EMR thing and get back to you.--

| T | BALLS! | 12:53 17 February 2011(UTC)

Frankly... unless someone devotes their entire daily AP to scouting a suburb, or has a large well organised group, or a zerg army, it's impossible to know what's going on in an entire suburb. Hence many of the "differences of opinion" (of course a few are also caused by bullshitters... but still) -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 13:06 17 February 2011 (BST)

^ Perhaps a system could be devised to clearly objectify what danger report would mean what suburb level. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 00:51, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

^^If you decide to go EMRP, I'd think about dropping the Ghosttown (or its equivalent), since I *think* that the EMRP does not count zombies inside buildings. EMRP does give infrastructure though, which ties into perfectly to your idea about basing this on "building status" rather than populations. -MHSstaff 19:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Haet it. Blue is not a good color. I'd strongly suggest you guys to move with something more greenish, as the military thing --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{[talk] [wcdz]} 01:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Some people called for blue so I thought I'd try it. :) Would be a little tricky as far as the links go, since they all seem to be in blue as well.--

| T | BALLS! | 12:53 17 February 2011(UTC)

I think I like your first color scheme a bit better, though I think either is fine. Not too keen on the second green color in the first scheme though. It doesn't seem to quite match. As for names, what about dominated or controlled, held, and battleground? --Zarneverfike 23:44, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, my suggestion for blue was just so that we didn't have two shades of green to deal with. It makes it easier to reference, since I hear people calling them "green suburbs" or the like. Two shades of green would have made that tough. Also, I picked the shade of blue I gave earlier carefully so that the links would still show up on them just fine. Anyway, I like the original colors better, but would bump green #1 to #2's spot, and then would use a blue for the #1 spot. —Aichon— 07:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

As above, not a fan of the blue indicators. So, is there enough consensus now to mock something up? I think a sandbox demo is in order. Just keep it to a 3x3 or 4x4 suburb grid and give others permission to play around with it. ~ 17:02, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

If 'safe' to 'dangerous' descriptions for suburbs are too much of a pro-survivor viewpoint, perhaps green to red backgrounds are too? Also, green and red can be particularly difficult for colour blind people to distinguish. --Toejam 01:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

POV Suburb Levels

While I like where ZL's head is currently at on this project, given that the "Pro-Survivor" version has been around since the beginning of the game, I think we should swing that bad-boy POV pendulumn back the other way for a couple of years. You know. For balance and karma.

Cell	Level	Description
	Harvest-Ready	Most buildings are closed, but full of delicous, buttery harman flesh. Delicious. Buttery. Flesh.
	Harman-stock rebuilding	Some buildings are open, but for the most part, harmanz are being recultivated for the upcoming Fall harvest. Hordes, as always, are welcome to begin feeding.
	Feeding Frenzy	Most buildings are open, and full of delicious, buttery harman flesh. Hordes, as always, are welcome to continue feeding.
	Harmanz are Endangered	Harman numbers have fallen rapidly, and the species is now in endanger of becoming extinct. Zombies should continue drop-kicking that dead horse.
	Harmanz are Extinct in the wild	Harmanz are nearly extinct, except in isolated, controlled populations. Zombies should move on to greener pastures.
	Harmanz Atrocity Zone	Harmanz have been eradicated from the suburb, and their corpses have been left to rot in the streets. Zombies should move on to greener pastures.

-MHSstaff 19:11, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I heartily support this proposal. --WanYao 04:25, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Given Recent activities this probably reflects the current status of the game better than the pro-survivor version. -- |||||||||||||||||||||||||| 17:46, 29 May 2011 (BST)

Largely Quantifiable Numbers

Since the current danger system utilizes some pretty straightforward numbers in the analysis, 50+ zombie hordes, 150+ zombie hordes, etc., I have found that current circumstances on the ground may warrant updating these numbers. Unlike the heyday of UD, overall participation is way down. Active accounts are down, too. Currently, the game has 8452 survivors standing, 4554 zombies standing, and 3716 dead/revivifying. This means that, per suburb assuming even distribution, there's around 84.5 survivors and 45.5 zombies. I haven't seen a fully-loaded multi-hundred-human defended mall in months, and there's absolutely no indication that the distribution of those survivors is even, meaning few suburbs have enough people to put even a single person inside each building.

All this said, the game is smaller now. Small groups of zombies can crack suburbs this lightly defended with ease. Survivors are spread thin trying to defend everything. Perhaps we should be looking at lower numbers constituting the danger levels? 25 zombie hordes and 75 zombie mega-hordes, perhaps? Either way, the numbers aren't really as useful as they once were, rarely coming into play in the updates. And, if they DO come into play, it's usually AFTER the suburb has already been wiped clean of humans. What updates might make this more useful? --BLusk 14:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Zombie Lord is working on something that moves the system away from population based reporting altogether. It's more of an infrastructure based reporting system that is along the lines of the EMRs we get. Population numbers are included but the danger of a burb is not based on it. I think he's still working out the details and so he hasn't posted anything here but you can see what he's working on at User:Zombie Lord/sandbox1. ~ 14:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for the link. Anyone who wants to take all that to a more public page so it can be worked on by anyone who feels the urge, should feel free.---

| T | BALLS! | 19:02 23 February 2011(UTC)

What happens next?

i've noticed that slowly the entire city is falling. Everywhere i go the buildings are ruined and there are only zombies. what happens when the entire city is zombified or dead?Jrs3000 18:07, 14 May 2011 (BST)

it won't come to that, u may notice that search rates for faks and syringes, even in ruins, are supergood right now...   ▧  ^{: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :} _{18:12, 14 May 2011}

holy shit almost the whole maps red no more greens and only 28% are humans i think malton is finelly falling to zombie hands lol go zeds! i wonder what would happen if all the humans died would kevin finelly end this xD and the best thing would be for the big bash to come around now...

28% is actually much better than it was a short time ago. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 04:18, 28 May 2011 (BST)

A side note

As you can see, pretty much nowhere is safe. Whenever you try to cade a building, you get killed somehow, so really, what is the point of playing as a survivor? you'll just keep getting killed every few days. So really the game is really favouring zombies. Survivors are being penalised. Seriously, I keep hearing stories that as soon as a building is caded, a rather large group of zombies coming from nowhere appears and kills everyone, how can you compete with that? But what if someone doesn't want to play as a zombie, they go to a revive point. Wait, idiots attack the zombies there too. So basically, survivors are screwed. Without survivors then this is not really much of a game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LoneGuardian09 (talk • contribs) 12:48, 30 May 2011 (BST).

well the game has to come to an end somtime i think that the zombies will end up ruling and the survivors or dying or just never log in again --Jose 16:50, 30 May 2011 (BST)

Simple, humans do what they are known for, surviving. it will simply be as nomads hiding in darkened buildings. which is a well used tactic in dangerous suburbs, hiding in ruined, dark buildings is really easy to do--Mikalos209 06:36, 4 June 2011 (BST)

Jeez, it's like some kind of zombie apocalypse or something! I never signed up for that!! --Cman yall 21:02, 4 June 2011 (BST)

Technically this is how the map should look. You have ot remember, human players for some reason seem to have a crippling hatred of eachother. --Mikalos209 23:39, 4 June 2011 (BST)

REDFEST

For real though, everything is red or orange now. Please take the descriptions of the colors in consideration. I understand people feel the need to make their suburb/temporary safe haven not stand out, but if you want to beat this whole massive zombie attack thing, you have to fight psychologically. Just like they're doing. ("Hey everythings red! This is keeping up our zombie spirits. Let's keep going for a long time." vs "Damn survivors took back the whole west coast! Sheeeiiiit. Let's eventually get bored and so forth.") Also, most of the random suburbs I walked through are pretty safe. Some zombies are standing outside but in no way in mobs of 50 or more or even 150 or more.

In addition: the wiki should be not biased for survivors nor undead, so providing truthful information would be a right thing to do. Also, keeping the danger map updated in this fashion, it's easier to locate the horde.

So please read and adhere the descriptions of the danger levels and don't think you should just put a higher level, just because that's the status of surrounding hoods. --Bean 15:48, 6 June 2011 (BST)

The map went completely red because everyone was dead, not because the zombies were high-fiving each other on the wiki. --Karloth Vois ^¯\(°_o)/¯ 16:53, 6 June 2011 (BST)

And three months ago there was a whole bunch of yellow and green. Which is what it's been consistently for like 2-3 years. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 09:29, 7 June 2011 (BST)

Here's some learning. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 09:31, 7 June 2011 (BST)

I've just had a rather long rant about this in frequently asked questions, if everybody is dead, and even if you get revived you are dead the next time you login, people will ask what is the point of playing, or just keep playing as a zombie instead. It's a hell of a lot easier being a zombie. So really, not long before humans are a dieing breed --LoneGuardian09 20:10 8th June 2011 (GMT)

Yeah, better to just give up now. Game over, man, game over! --||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 20:26, 8 June 2011 (BST)

Update At Survivors Risk?

is the status of a "safe" building better left unknown/out-of-date for survivors?

i understand i am updating at my own risk...but recon information is important for survivors (and, yes i know, zombies). i'm trying to have a npov but after witnessing a GKer destroy the genny of a building i updated just a few hours prior pissed me off (as a character). i stayed in the building to witness the effect of updating wiki information. and since my UD & Wiki names are the same, i'm also worried about being PK'd by a pro-survivor (someone who doesn't PK) for giving out their safe-house info...so now i prefer to update TRP only...but it's hard for the survivor community who aren't in groups to know if a suburb is "safe" with only 0-30% of the danger levels. -- Son of Sin -- 21 August 2011, 09:44 (GMT)

Honestly from the zombie perspective the danger map is solely self promotion, most of the determination about where to go on a suburb level has to do with maintaining momentum. Survivors are who the map was largely designed for and functions effectively for as an information tool. Survivors benefit from knowing where survivors are, zombies have to know more about activity times. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 12:26, 21 August 2011 (BST)

Thanks Karek. Son of Sin -- 21 August 2011, 12:06 (GMT)

The ghost town problem

Ok, I'm sending this to you, because it seems you're the only sysop here with an IQ higher than 80. I've been updating the status rapport of Dakerstown recently. Please take a look at it here, and notice how it hasn't been changed since medio 2009, when Urban Dead had twice as many players as it has now. Note that at Ghost town it says "At least 2/3 of the suburb's buildings either empty of Survivors or Ransacked/Ruined AND max 60 zombies in suburb and no zombie groups above 10." I've made a quick calc based on the stats page which says right now there are 5942 standing survivors. That gives an average of 59,42 survivors per suburb. This means that - according to the present rules - it's fairly easy for a suburb to become a ghost town, and there probably are a lot more of them than the suburbs page says. I don't know the average number of buildings per suburb, I mean, in theory we could be good, but practically there could be over 20 ghost towns right now. If you tell me how many buildings Malton has I'll make another calc and make an advise.

Also there are just a little over 3000 standing zombies in Malton, so 30 per suburb on average. That problem is even more severe than the survivor problem, because there can be only 50 suburbs with 60 zombies. That means that there's a big chance that suburbs marked red now are actually ghost town as well.

In my opinion ghost town should be an exception, not a rule. Thanks--User:Generaloberst 18:35 9 December, 2011 (UTC)

The suburb danger levels are heavily outdated. There have been a few attempts to revise them, but none of them was carried through. -- Spiderzed█ 20:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Why not? User:Generaloberst 20:19 9 December, 2011 (UTC)

"Human inertia" is the right answer to a surprising lot of wiki questions. -- Spiderzed█ 21:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Please forward me a link to that, I'd like the check it out. User:Generaloberst 22:51 9 December, 2011 (UTC)

Just some recent attempts. -- Spiderzed█ 23:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I do like what Zombieload had in his sandbox might be a tad too busy on a giant map though.        23:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Spiderzed, those are all just suggestions. How do suggestions usually process before being accepted as wiki law? User:Generaloberst 23:22 9 December, 2011 (UTC)

actually agree with Generalobese ...danger reports/levels need to reflect current pop. & also be situational & make sense...safe: The mall is barricaded with less than twenty zombies throughout the structure. ...~20 zombies "throughout" (inside) a barricaded structure is safe? 4 zombies can bring down barricades & ruin each corner of an empty mall easily (8 zombies if survivors are inside). did a zombie player pin the descriptions?

but back on-topic ...suburb danger status descriptions should be

• ["safe": Infrequent break-ins, max. ~15 zombies in a suburb and no (hostile) zombie groups]
• ["moderately dangerous": Quite frequent break-ins (zombies inside any type of building) and no zombie groups above 10]
• ["dangerous": Frequent break-ins (zombies inside many (any type) buildings) OR hostile mobs 20+]
• ["very dangerous": Zombie-infested buildings OR hostile mobs 30+]

"ghost town" is tricky because you have to rely on eye witness reports from questionable players, same with all reports, but especially this 1 ...zombies can leave a "very dangerous" suburb & survivor groups can swiftly reclaim the suburb within 24 hours ...unlike Dunell Hills which probably can't be reclaimed because zombies idled out inside every building, waiting for survivors to begin reclaiming.

statuses should reflect situations also ...30+ hostile zombies can be at a fort or mall while the rest of the suburb is peaceful ...so there should be a "special" status for suburbs with big targets. →Son of Sin← 03:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

these pages need modifications & examples: Green, Red, Ghost Town ...and mod. dangerous, dangerous, and very dangerous need pages in the glossary. User:DangerReport pages should link to each danger level page (safe - Break-ins rare, max 50 zombies in suburb and no zombie groups above 10.) →Son of Sin← 05:16, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

or better yet ...there should be 1 danger level page for the glossary, not 5 separate pages ...duh ...i'll work on that right now ...if it's rejected, oh well →Son of Sin← 05:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

What you proposed for "safe" makes no sense. 2 zombies standing in the same block is already a group. Also, what if you have a zombie group consisting of 11 zombies that rarely breaks in? Then it's not safe or moderately dangerous because it's more than 10, but it's also not dangerous because it's less than 20 and doesn't break in 'frequently'. On other words; your current proposition is not convering everything. Also, what if we have 29 zombies that invest the suburb as a whole? Then it's dangerous and very dangerous at the same time. Also, in my opinion it makes completely no sense to judge the danger level of a suburb as a whole based on the presence of a group of zombies. We have building statuses for individual blocks. Those are two completely seperate things.

There is many contradiction in both your suggestion as the present guidelines. We need to turn this one into a nice, easy in use page.

I suggest we judge only - and only - by the survivor-zombie ratio in the suburb. In Malton this is exactly 2:1 now, or 66% survivor, 33% zombie.

• ["safe": 0-33.3% zombie]
• ["moderately dangerous": 33.3-50% zombie]
• ["dangerous": 50-75% zombie]
• ["very dangerous": > 75% zombie]

Plain and very simple, no contradictionaries, great standards, and always up to date no matter how far the number of players drops - the way a Nazi likes it. User:Generaloberst 18:28 10 December, 2011 (UTC)

Should you have any problems with this suggestion please say so. User:Generaloberst 20:02 10 December, 2011 (UTC)

feel like we're wasting our time ...the current system won't be improved ...but i agree with you ...percentages will work better but who will count all survivors & all zombies in a suburb ...and scan each zombie to differentiate pro-survivor zombies from hostile zombies? the external military only sees outside & is inaccurate ...i compared an EMR to a NT scan taken immediately after an EMR was broadcasted ...eye witness estimates will be inaccurate too ...no single person checks every single building/block in a suburb ...and even your ghost town change in Dakerstown was inaccurate ...you think your zombie group had the only standing zombies in Dakerstown ...but you failed to add up all of the survivors that died & stood as zombies ...they're included in the zombie population ...but they aren't "hostile" ...therefore, they don't make a suburb very dangerous for any survivors who will go in to reclaim after hostile zombie groups leave. →Son of Sin← 23:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

You can simply explore half of the suburb and assume the rest of the suburb would be somewhat the same. It's not Dakerstown what were talking about here so i'll keep it short. I've documented 45 survivors in the suburb before the battle started, of which 12 were in Swearse. There are 57 buildings in the suburb. I made a quick calc with that and yeah, the suburb actually was a ghost town even before the battle started. So if I'm gonna go by the rules I'm going to edit the page and remove the bit that says the suburb became 'very dangerous'. But the rules are very outdated. Sleeping in Dakerstown simply ment death at the time, which makes 'very dangerous' a much better representation. If there was any suburb that deserved 'very dangerous' it was Dakerstown.

no, that's a problem ...exploring half of a suburb & assuming the rest is the same is false/inaccurate reporting ...i've seen suburbs half ruined & half "safe" especially in suburbs bordering red suburbs ...be 99.9% accurate or don't change a report (although i'm guilty of doing this, rarely) ...seems like your agenda is to make the suburb map white (all ghost towns) after your group ruins everything, kills every survivor & leaves immediately ...a suburb should be deserted for at least 48 hours before the status is changed to a ghost town unless it was a ghost town already but wasn't accurate on the map ...and i agree, Dakerstown looked like a ghost town before your group wreaked it, but i didn't check each building or block, so i didn't change the status ...and i'm biased ...if 10-20 survivors are "holding a suburb down", keeping buildings powered & 'caded, i don't feel comfortable changing their suburb's status to a ghost town →Son of Sin← 00:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to ask Ross if I can update the guidelines for editing the suburb, since it seems no one has objection against the thing I suggested. User:Generaloberst 0:14 11 December, 2011 (UTC)

erm, you do realise you barely left it a day. And didn't even put it on the main page or anything, to actually notify stakeholders. Perhaps waiting a bit longer for people to comment would be a bit more responsible D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 00:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There are no guidelines for that. But I told you already. I'll put it on the mainpage though. User:Generaloberst 13:27 11 December, 2011 (UTC)

I've put it on Wiki News, though it seems I can't edit this page so that it will appear on the main page. Any help would be appreciated. User:Generaloberst 13:45 11 December, 2011 (UTC)

No problems, I've put it up for you D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 14:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

So for everyone that got here by following the link on the main page: we want to update the suburb danger levels, or, to say it better, the definition of the danger levels on the suburbs page. This is needed because the number of players in Urban Dead has steadily dropped over the years. For that reason it's now very easy for a suburb to become a ghost town. Also, we feel like the presence of a mob in a suburb doesn't make the suburb more dangerous as a whole; we have building statuses for that.

The proposition is:

• ["safe": 0-33.3% zombie]
• ["moderately dangerous": 33.3-50% zombie]
• ["dangerous": 50-75% zombie]
• ["very dangerous": > 75% zombie]

Ghost town will be scratched as a whole! Working with ratios is easier in use, holds no contradictionaries and is always up to date no matter how far the number of players drops. User:Generaloberst 16:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This is crap. Who would want it to be based on percentages of zombies. First, it completely ignores the NPOV issues that many on this very discussion page had. Secondly, it would require not only all of the known zombie numbers in a burb but also the survivor numbers. You essentially block half the population from accurately updating danger reports. Zombies. You may believe that you can effectively report on survivor numbers while in a burb with your horde but do you really think that anyone is going to be capable of this? The current system is difficult enough to accurately report. This is exponentially worse. Any changens to suburb danger should be infrastructure oriented and NPOV. ~ _{16:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)}

I play in a zombie group myself, and have repeatedly checked the total amount of survivors in a suburb. Also, as I said, you don't have to check the entire suburb. Sometimes it's clear what the status is like after having checked only a portion of it. Furthermore, you're free to not like my idea, but I'd appreciate it if you, rather than simply botting it out from the start, come up with a suggestion yourself. User:Generaloberst 17:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes and your zombie group also led by a known alt abuser. For the zombie groups that don't cheat, their option for checking survivor numbers 1) smash in doors and take a peek inside or 2) use a death cultist/CR'd member to scout. You're trying to stack odds in your favor so you can turn the city map red. Your plan is utterly transparent. If you want to see my contributions to a better suggestion, all you need to do is look a couple of section above this one. ~ _{18:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)}

There are more factors in making a suburb safe or dangerous than just the number of zombies. For instance had FOD focused their assault on the whole suburb instead of just The Abandoned it would have been considerably more dangerous for survivors in the area. Also as Vapor stated not all zombies are that hostile. Mrh? cows are considerably safer to be around than a RRF strike team. The safety of a suburb must be measured by the rate of break-ins and how much of it is ruined. Break-ins directly show the strength of the survivor resistance and how strong the horde/ferals are and the number of ruins tell how active the survivors are in the suburb. PKer presence and effectiveness is hard to quantify and is normally marginal but none the less an important thing to consider.        19:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

lol Vapor do you really think that's what I'm trying to do? Implement new rules so I can turn the entire city red? I thought people always call nazi's conspiracy believers, but you just made a good attempt. No. This is NPOV. I want new rules because technically there likely are over 20 ghost towns now. Since there are only 3000 zombies, there can only be 50 suburbs that have more than 60 zombies. So that leaves the buildings, if 2/3rds are empty, it is - by the (current) rules - a ghost town. And I'm sure that there are suburbs that don't even have enough people to fill 2/3rds of the buildings, let alone if they stack up in the same building. And no, you haven't given any suggestions what the definition of the danger levels should be like. All you came up with is 'how to make the suburb page easier to update/check detailed records'. That's something differend. We need new definitions. And we need to work something out together or we will keep experiencing this problem. So I suggest you stop making personal attacks on me and start coming up with a suggestion that (by your opinion) is better.

Oh, and for your information. Our groups has four death cultists. That's how we check. User:Generaloberst 19:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Mazu, same for you, you can bot something out, that's fine, but please come up with new (worked out) suggestions. Botting something out alone won't change anything. User:Generaloberst 19:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

A) pay attention to your indents and do them right. B) I don't have a particular solution in mind, I'm just telling you things to consider to improve your idea. Personally, as I have voiced on Ross's talk page first and it's on here because the convo has be C/P, I liked the idea in Zombie Lord's sandbox (Although I might remove the mobile phone mast icon, and the number in the middle right, I think that's the number of zombies maybe?). It is based off the state of buildings which is reasonably accurate for judging the safety for survivors to be in that suburb. More importantly EMR's can be auto updated via a bot and with the coding of some templates the suburb page might be able to auto update when the EMR's are updated. (I'm not quite sure how or if that would work though..). If the EMR obtained status is obviously inaccurate you could manually change the color.        04:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Honestly the icons could just be placed on the template proper and noincluded. Perhaps provide a link to the danger template on the with include only. Keeps the map clean. ZL's project is actually about 90% complete it just needs some tlc, some technical tweaks and some community approval. ~ _{04:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)}

I don't really see this as a problem since, as you state quite clearly, it reflects the reality of the game when actually updated and the only practical solution to that specific problem is automatic graying when there's been no update for a number of months, or even possibly only a month. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 19:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah but the status of a suburb usually doesn't change that fast, except when groups move from suburb to suburb once a month is acceptable. Once every two weeks would be good. User:Generaloberst 20:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Read some of the discussion up higher on this page for some good ideas regarding how it would be better to redo the suburb danger levels. Those are the ideas that you should be basing your work off of, rather than trying to start something from scratch. Basing it on the percentage of zombies vs. survivors is not a good reason for a wide variety of reasons (it reflects numbers rather than the effect of those numbers (i.e. who cares if there are 2x more survivors in the suburb if they are 10x more incompetent and have let the suburb fall apart?), doesn't address NPOV concerns, can't be verified via the automated broadcasts, can change drastically without any important change in the suburb having occurred, and would require exorbitant effort to be accurately updated, all just off the top of my head). As for Ghost Town, you need to be aware that, unlike the other danger levels, Ghost Town was created via a policy, so you would need to get the policy rescinded (yes, that's ridiculous, but it is what it is) before you could change it or remove it. To do otherwise would be to go against policy. So, basically, go read the stuff up above and add to those discussions, since they got a lot further than this one will if it keeps going in this direction. You're going down a dead end with the current proposition. —Aichon— 04:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

And to be clear, I do think that the suburb danger levels are in need of an update. I just don't think that this is it, and I'd rather stick with what we have until we come up with an idea that is more than just marginally better. —Aichon— 04:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Following Mr. Karek, I do think, all other level classifications aside, an automatic update of "unknown" and an associated graying for any suburb without a manual update within a month would be delightful. Not perfect, not without the potential for abuse, but nevertheless better than what we have at present. Barbecue Barbecue 05:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

so NPOV is about the information zombies AND survivors can report in a suburb ...ohhh ...so danger levels reflect what any player (zombie or survivor) can see, basically from outside ...the state of buildings (ransacked/ruined, powered, barricaded or open) ...yeah so, now that i know that ...Zombie Lord's idea is great ...and i agree w/ Kiki Lottaboobs who voted against the ghost town policy ...if you are alone (or think you're alone) in a deserted suburb, it's the safest place to be for a survivor or zombie ...so technically, it would be safe & a ghost town, depending on who you ask ...suburbs are either safe/deserted or variants of dangerous ...therefore, the policy is unnecessary & needs to be abolished →Son of Sin← 06:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

No, NPOV means Neutral Point of View. The DangerMap levels are notoriously POV. Safe? Safe for whom? Survivors. Not safe for zombies. Very Dangerous? For whom? Survivors. Zombies probably feel pretty safe in a burb marked very dangerous. What you see in Zombie Lord's sandbox is a culmination of suggestions to make danger levels both NPOV and relevant to the game that it is today. And yes, Ghost Town would probably go away as part of any change, though provisions could still be made for burbs that are ransacked and uninhibited.~ _{07:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)}

the danger map shouldn't be NPOV ...zombies don't have to be (or have to worry about being) safe ...buildings are safe houses for survivors, not for zombies ...therefore, the state of infrastructure is more (or only) important to survivors ...zombies don't (or shouldn't) lurch gait from safe/survivor-dominated suburbs to (moderately/very) dangerous/zombie-dominated suburbs to hide from survivors →Son of Sin← 09:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I could agree with using Zombie Lord's idea if we scratch the ghost town part. Does anyone have any objection against this? User:Generaloberst 12:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. I kind of do. That project is not finished and still needs work before being implemented. Then there is the problem of the absurd amount of wiki coding that would need to be done (about 150+ template updates). That includes mocking something up and checking to make sure the template include size limit isn't hosed on Suburb after the changes. Best if for now the project is moved to a more public space and discuss it until after the holidays. We can begin earnest trying to implement it in the new year. ~ _{14:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)}

Then changing the numbers only should statisfy for now. What I mean is that we temporary change (lower) the numbers to something better than it is right now, until we implement the new system into the wiki. The number of players is 2 times lower than it was at the last update, so how about this:

The proposition is:

• ["safe": Break-ins rare, max 25+ zombies in suburb and no zombie groups above 5.]
• ["moderately dangerous": Active zombies and break-ins, but no 25+ hostile hordes]
• ["dangerous": Zombies inside many resource buildings; OR hostile mobs of 25+]
• ["very dangerous": > Most buildings wide open or zombie-infested; OR hostile zombie mobs of 75+]

It's bad, but good enough as a temporary solution to the problem. User:Generaloberst 14:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

75+ is too high ...a small mob (25+) can ruin a suburb if it's "a ghost town" (mostly empty buildings w/ few survivors to repair/kill zombies or even notice a mob is in the area) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Son of Sin (talk • contribs) 15:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC).

I'm not very keen on putting in a stop-gap change to the system to appease one "group" that feels slighted because they don't have the numbers to technically make an impact on danger reports but if it will stop cornhole from more zerging then have at it. Every other zombie group has just dealt with it until now but whatever. Honestly if you just mark your suburbs red when you enter, I don't think anyone is going to contest it. ~ _{16:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)}

Do you seriously think I was having a chat with my... other personality on the talk page of Nazi Zombies? Given the present rules I don't think Nazi Zombies can make any suburb red. We can keep the resource buildings in hands which would make it orange, but from there on it would go ghost town. Though that is if you exactly go by the rules. Of course when I made Dakerstown red, it really was a very dangerous place. And no, that is no hipstering. Rosslessness has turned Dakerstown yellow now while it is actually still a ghost town. So, Vapor, seen that you have a hand of judging nationalists differend than 'other' people, call me a hipster and you're calling Ross one as well, since he's doing the same thing. Not that I could care a lot if you call us hipsters though. 1. The present rules suck. and 2. Because we got worse hipsters in malton (Cobra :x) User:Generaloberst 18:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC

Or or or or, we could leave it as is, because, as we all know, we wont be here much longer. Misconbitragnarok...-- •הבוס• ♥ ^CGR 02:17, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Please explain that? User:Generaloberst 21:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

doomsday 12.21.12 ☺ →Son of Sin← 21:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

That too. -- •הבוס• ♥ ^CGR 00:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Open Discussion

I've started an open discussion to try to consolidate all of the currently proposed DangerMap ideas. The discussion here got rather off topic and disorganized and I wanted to help steer it back on track. Feel free to discuss things in a more organized fashion here. ~ _{15:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)}

A question about Vinetown

What exactly is noteworthy about Vinetown? It doesn't have any description or explanation and I was wondering if it was just an oversight, or if it needed to be demoted to just another tar heel suburb.--BrotherMcBeaner 20:36, 12 May 2012 (BST)

Near as I can tell, it was modified without comment or justification less than a year ago. I've gone ahead and set it back to normal. —Aichon— 21:27, 12 May 2012 (BST)