Suggestion:20080730 Reduce FAK effectiveness in dark buildings

20080730 Reduce effectiveness of FAKs in dark buildings

WanYao 20:29, 30 July 2008 (BST)

Suggestion type
FAK change, dark buildings

Suggestion scope
affects Survivors, but benefits zombies.

Suggestion description

Dark buildings are HELL for zombies. With their already quite low attack %s relative to survivors, even highly coordinated and deadly hordes like the Militant Order of Barhah have a lot of trouble clearing dark buildings. And on top of the difficulty for zombies to kill inside dark buildings, survivors have the ability to completely negate massive amounts of zombie AP with only a few AP -- by using First Aid Kits.

This suggestion attempts to redress this imbalance somewhat. It is also logical: hit %ages are halved inside dark buildings, and revives have only a 50% chance of working. So it's logical to halve the effectiveness of FAKs as well. Doing first aid would be as hard, or harder, than poking a zombie with a needle, no?

The Numbers Game

Using the Combat Calculator I came up the following results...

It takes an average of 64 AP for a zombie with Vigor Mortis, Death Grip and Rend Flesh to get a 60 HP survivor to 12 HP -- at which point, they can use Feeding Drag to pull them outside and get normal hit %s. Meaning another 1 AP (for the Drag) + 8 AP for the final kill. And this doesn't include trying to Infect the target, which adds more to the equation. So, a minuimum average of 73 AP to kill one survivor! Yes... seventy-effen-three AP to kill one survivor!!!

Or, it takes a fully skilled zombie 13.3 AP to inflict 10 HP with hand attacks.

Even taking into account Tangling Grasp -- whose effect is sporadic, and minimal in dark buildings -- the AP expenditure is huge.

Meanwhile, a survivor can hit a mall and get a FAK in 2 AP worth of searching, easily! Plus 1 AP for the application of the FAK. And suddenly 3 survivor APs have negated over a dozen zombie APs! That's one of the the most atrocious imbalances in the entire game. And even if you factor in Tangling Grasp, survivor "travel time", etc. (but then you should factor in 'cade bashing and biting for the zombies!) you're still looking a massive AP imbalance. In any event, 6-10 survivor AP can negate an entire day's worth of zombie AP in a matter of seconds.

Furthermore, survivors have a way of dealing with the dark: install a generator. Sure, gennies are a bit of a pain, but it takes only one genny to light the building and allow the zombies to be attacked at full hit %ages. With some coordination, one person drops a genny, a couple more shoot/CR zombies and 'cade up... Problem solved.

Zombies do not have this option. Zombies just have to groan and bear it...

The Solution

Very simple really. There will be two effects in dark buildings when a survivor uses a FAK:

1. 100% success rate, but the HP healed are halved (rounded down). XP received for healing would remain unaffected.
2. FAKs will not cure Infections when used inside a dark building.

Conclusion

This suggestion would give zambahz a bit of a break in dark buildings, making them less the Dark Fortresses they currently are. IMO, it doesn't fully address the imbalance, but it's a start...

And please remember, FAKs are very easy to come by, so all said and done this won't hurt survivors that much. But it negates somewhat the massive AP advantage that survivors currently have if they simply apply a couple of FAKs to the meatshields inside a besieged Dark Fortress.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Author keep - For great BARHAH! --WanYao 20:36, 30 July 2008 (BST)
2. Keep - Dark Buildings limit almost every other action, it's only fair that Healing take a hit as well.-- Techercizer ^(Food) _(TSoE) 20:37, 30 July 2008 (BST)
3. Keep As you still get the xp. Still prefer the nullify First Aid in dark buildings option. (Grumble) --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:12, 30 July 2008 (BST)

   You can't please everyone... I shouldn't have given you people ANY options to choose from... :P --WanYao 21:48, 30 July 2008 (BST)

4. Keep - It's only fair. --Insomniac By Choice 21:54, 30 July 2008 (BST)
5. Keep - As Techercizer. --Jared^{Talk SPA CK} 22:14, 30 July 2008 (BST)
6. Keep - Dark buildings make chewing on harman brains more difficult. In a dark building, a newb zombie with Vigour Mortis has 17.5% chance to hit with claws, and a pathetic 10% with bite. It needs to evened.--drawde ^{DORIS•RR•RRF•RI!} 22:26, 30 July 2008 (BST)
7. Keep - Just like the other whiners, not the solution i wanted but something should be done. :) - Tylerisfat 00:38, 31 July 2008 (BST)
8. Keep - Sure--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 01:35, 31 July 2008 (BST)
9. Keep - All the people whining in the kill section, and thats precisely what they are doing, are ignoring the fact that it costs a grand total on 1 ap to hop nextdoor into the non dark building and do things normally, and they were told this when this was on Talk:Suggestions. Who cares if they dont come back? Thats their choice. Many people leave buildings being attacked by zombies, does that make the game broken, or is it simply that the people who flee are smart while the people who stay and fight are stupid? I know which of the two options id choose. Yet another example of clear bias affecting a decent suggestion negatively. Unless you are infected and at 1hp, this isnt going to pose a problem, and if you are there you would probably die anyway. As for Jon Pyres epic fail comment, its quite easy to bandage an injury poorly, or only partially stop any bleeding, or apply the bandage in such a way that you barely cover the wound. Try putting a bandage on a cut in the darkness to try it out. It takes much longer as you have to scrabble around for all the pieces you need, and its nearly never as good as if you could see what you were doing since its often misaligned, and that when you are putting it on yourself. Putting it on another person, where you are deprived both the kinesthetic sense and pain sense of the person you are treating, and it is very, very easy to botch the job. The only way this could be made better is if a fail rate was added as well that expended the FAK for nothing. After all, if you have tried to use it to treat someones wounds, its no longer going to be close to sterile, what with the blood and grime and seeping pus and all sorts of other lovely disgusting pollutants. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 03:43, 31 July 2008 (BST)
10. Keep - Because it makes perfect sense. --Papa Moloch 05:44, 31 July 2008 (BST)
11. Keep - makes brilliant sense--Minigun4523 12:15, 31 July 2008 (BST)
12. Keep - I am going to vote keep because the idiots wanting to kill it don't realize that anti-bacterial kills bacteria, not viruses. Oh, and because its a realistic idea. anyone know how hard it is to clean and sew up a bite/scratches in the dark? let's say we aren't dealing with boo-boos here, these are serious injuries that don't seem to affect a person until they have 0 Hp.Shooty08 18:41, 31 July 2008 (BST)
13. Keep - Keep Keep Keep, because it's a step in the right direction to re-address the imbalance caused by Dark buildings - Necrodeus ^{T M!} 19:47, 31 July 2008 (BST)
14. Keep - Sounds good --BrainsTasty 22:05, 31 July 2008 (BST)
15. Keep - While far more needs to be done to alleviate the broken mechanic of darkness (And yes, it's broken for both sides), this is a step. Though I really do think a lessening of effects would likely be a better option than simply an evening out of them. --Scorpios 22:35, 31 July 2008 (BST)
16. Keep - Dark Buildings are nerfs to zombies, this helps that out a bit. --Janine 23:16, 4 August 2008 (BST)
17. Keep - You know it makes sense! -- Cheese 12:03, 5 August 2008 (BST)
18. Keep I thought about it and it isnt very bad after al --Piskus99 07:10, 6 August 2008 (BST)
19. For the Horde! - great idea. Most of the kill votes are trenchy bullshit, though the person who suggested halving the success rate as opposed to the amount healed ( Karek and one other) are onto something. Either way, good idea is great. Bobs Aturd 14:32, 10 August 2008 (BST)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - Screws newbies more than other survivors. The rounding down causes 60% drop in HP healed for people without First Aid vs. 50% drop for people with First Aid. They would only heal 2 HP per FAK. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 20:56, 30 July 2008 (BST)

   Yes, round down. Exactly. Everything else in UD is rounded down, so this is too. And how does it screw with newbies? It doesn't. Note that XP is unaffected. That one inconsistency was put in to help assure newbies aren't screwed... --WanYao 21:07, 30 July 2008 (BST)

   It's not the rounding down I'm against (not anymore), it's halving the HP healed (which results in the rounding). And I already said how it screws newbies more than others. It's really quite simple. The XP is irrelevant because all heals give you 5XP. Many other solutions were proposed on the talk page that wouldn't screw newbies and you chose pretty much the only one that does. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 21:33, 30 July 2008 (BST)

2. Kill There's a difference between shooting at something in the dark and applying healing salve and bandages. Putting a bandage on a wound is sort of a Pass/Fail option. Either the wound is bandaged or its not. The same goes for infection. Darkness wouldn't affect how effective whatever antibacterial salve you apply is, and it seems silly that someone would miss the wound and stick it on somebody's belly button or something. It's dark but not pitch black, so you can still see, and you're working on a willing patient that you are touching. --Jon Pyre 21:13, 30 July 2008 (BST)

   I really didn't intend to re: every kill vote... But... sheeesh! First Aid is more than applying a bandage! It's cleaning and suturing wounds, possibly fixing broken bones, and applying bandages, tourniquets and antiseptics in a proper manner so as to stave off bleeding, infection, etc. etc.. That's not something you can do blindfolded, come on, get real. And this mechanic makes it harder to apply First Aid -- of course! -- but does not make it impossible. --WanYao 21:26, 30 July 2008 (BST)

3. Kill + Change - Sorry but I think infection should be curable in a dark building, else if someone is infected (I know the unlikely chance, yes) then they will be forced to leave the building entirely if they wake up and aren't dead, just to cure themselves. And what chance will you have of them coming back? You have just made it more AP efficient for a zombie to bite and wait than actually kill them. Yes, they could FAK in another place and come back but who is going to do that, besides an idiotic trenchcoater? Then again, I didn't read the entire suggestiong out of laziness. Perhaps you could persuade me. DanceDanceRevolution 01:02, 31 July 2008 (BST)
4. Kill Darkness reduces rates, not quantities (FAK results are not subject to randomization under this suggestion, unlike attacks and searches in dark buildings). --Galaxy125 02:27, 31 July 2008 (BST)
5. It makes more sense that you would have a reduce chance of success then reduced HP. After all, its too dark to see if your covering the whole wound with a bandage, for example.--Pesatyel 03:15, 31 July 2008 (BST)
6. Kill/Change - Just make a 50% fail rate in dark buildings.--Karek^maps?! 03:28, 31 July 2008 (BST)
7. Reluctant kill - There are too many ways to argue around this one. Wouldn't survivors have access to flashlights, lanterns, fire on a stick, etc? Light enough for tasks like first aid (but not enough for combat)? I agree that dark buildings nerf zombies more than anyone, but anything that counterbalances the problem is going to need to be airtight.--Jiangyingzi 03:35, 31 July 2008 (BST)
8. As Karkek.--ShadowScope^{'the true enemy'} 03:41, 31 July 2008 (BST)
9. Kill/Change – A 50% failure rate would be more in keeping with darkness's effect on other actions. Plus, variable rewards are more addictive. :D ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 06:21, 31 July 2008 (BST)

   This is one the few kill votes that is actually sensible. ;) Most of the rest of you people are pathetic whingers who have no problem, apparently, with the horrible and very unfair zombie nerf that dark buildings are. And no idea what it actually takes to treat a REAL injury... --WanYao 21:53, 31 July 2008 (BST)

10. Kill - I was kinda with you up to the part about 'FAKs will not cure Infections when used inside a dark building' - Zig13 - 31/07/2008 at 10:31(BST)
11. Kill/Change - Makes sense, but a 50% failure rate would be better then healing half the HP, IMO. Perhaps to balance, badly-wounded survivors should be able to "Call for a Heal", meaning that they have a 100% chance , instead of 50%? Linkthewindow 11:16, 31 July 2008 (BST)
12. Kill - really? reallly? gabdewulf 14:50, 31 July 2008 (BST)
13. Kill - As Johnny Fate. Also, I believe that this change is unnecessary. Plus, as a PKer, I hide in darkened buildings a lot, so I would hate to receive less heals.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  16:32, 31 July 2008 (BST)
14. Kill - In Monroeville we are already outnumbered 4 to 1 as survivors and having darkened buildings target, now you want to reduce the effects of the FAK's it takes us 10+ searches to find in ruined buildings? Karec 17:59, 31 July 2008 (BST)
15. Come on...You don't need much light to bandage someone up. It's not like you're performing surgery or something with a lousy FAK. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 18:50, 31 July 2008 (BST)

    Read what I've written for frig sake. 1st aid is more than just slapping on a bandage, get a clue. --WanYao 21:56, 31 July 2008 (BST)

    You know what comes in those little first aid kits you get in stores? A bunch of bandages, perhaps one of those scissors thing, something that treats a burn...It's not much, really. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 23:29, 31 July 2008 (BST)

    Ok, seriously here... I'm not asking this to be belligerent or make a big "fight"... But, if Malton's FAKs were as "bare bones" as the ones you're describing, do you really think they'd be all that effective at dealing with the kind of serious wounds that zombie attacks (and gunshots) would inflict? It doesn't make sense that a few bandages and some polysporin would be able to heal ANYTHING... For that reason, I make the assumption that we're dealing with First Aid supplies to support the kind of RL First Aid training you'd receive with St John's Ambulance or something... Any other sort of "first aid", like the mere application of some spit 'n'ngauze would be totally ineffectual... it couldn't heal 5/10/15 HP of damage from zombie claws and infectious bites, that doesn't make any sense. Therefore, if FAKs are like you describe, they should heal like 1 HP -- at best -- everywhere.... --WanYao 08:27, 1 August 2008 (BST)_{RE in excess of maximum. Galaxy125 03:30, 2 August 2008 (BST)}

16. Kill/Change – A 50% failure rate would be more in keeping with effect of darkness on other actions, otherwise it makes perfect sense --TouchingVirus 22:09, 31 July 2008 (BST)
17. Kill - As above. As for any complaints about bias, if it wasn't already obvious, every kill/keep suggestion in nearly every suggestion created in the history of UD has had a radical form of bias, from the survivors that want new weapons, to the zombies who bitch about survivors being too strong, to the survivors that bitch that zombies are too strong, and etc. Therefore: bias isn't a valid argument. If anyone in this wiki actually voted based on the merit of a suggestion, then a plenty of us would be out of work, wouldn't we...? Or is the "merit" of a suggestion based completely off whether or not one or another side believes that the suggestion works or does not work for them? For once, is it possible to have any suggestions voted on with a minimal amount of drama from either side involved? So much for democracy. --Private Mark 00:56, 1 August 2008 (BST)

    I vote for all suggestions based on their merit. I take into context balance issues, and part of that includes the inherent game engine's AP imbalance against zombies ... But, yeah, I vote based on the merit and strength of a suggestion, not on some pretty much non-existent "camp" to which I may or may not allegedly adhere. In fact, all this talk of "bias" and "drama" seems to have been brought up by YOU and only you... Interesting... --WanYao 08:16, 1 August 2008 (BST)

    Actually, this vote was leaning more towards a response to Grim's statement here: Yet another example of clear bias affecting a decent suggestion negatively. than anything else. You can kinda say it popped a nerve, considering that I can count on one hand many times when he himself didn't vote on the merit of a suggestion, nor many of the rest of us here. But I won't get any further into that. My apologies if it seemed directed at you. --Private Mark 07:20, 2 August 2008 (BST)

18. Kill/Change I actually like the intent of this suggestion, but I don't like your execution of it. I would vote for it if FAKs were 60% as effective and healed infections. In fact, if it just healed infections, I'd be happy with it. After all, disinfecting a wound and supplying antibiotics are the easiest parts of first aid IMO.--William Told 23:21, 1 August 2008 (BST)

    Also, I think that you overstate the balance issues involved with dark buildings: Despite the obvious advantages, many idiots still light them up; they are much harder to clear if a mall and AR aren't nearby; and the AP cost to repair dark ruins tends to make up for the AP cost to ruin them.--William Told 23:26, 1 August 2008 (BST)

19. Change - Too only prevent FAKs from healing a zombie infection. Those must be hard. We'll assume that after the doctor/medic comes to the victim's aid, he'll be able to stop any bleeding with the guidance of the victim yelling "My leg! My leg!"--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 17:00, 3 August 2008 (BST)
20. Kill - I'm good. Swier's thing made sense, for realism's sake, but this is a bit of a stretch. --Vandurn 19:17, 3 August 2008 (BST)
21. Kill - As above, mostly Midianian and Johnny Fate. -- 
    •  Nevin McAvoy 
    •  (talk) 
    21:02, 3 August 2008 (BST)
22. Kill - Totally retarded.--Zombie Lord 03:01, 5 August 2008 (BST)

    Kill- Precisely why I hate WanYao Ioncannon11 12:01, 5 August 2008 (BST)

    • Note - Troll based vote struck.--The General ^{T Sys U! P! F!} 20:20, 5 August 2008 (BST)

23. Kill - I've seen better idea's for fixing this... - Matthew Armada 21:32, 5 August 2008 (BST)
24. Kill - Definitely not the ideal solution. --ZiP^MH+LUE 21:36, 5 August 2008 (BST)
25. Kill - Yeah, this is stupid. The diagnosis suggestion is much better. Ioncannon11 01:16, 6 August 2008 (BST)
26. Kill - overpowered nerf, because it also attacks the infection cure. C'mon - try to be a little less biased. --Funt Solo ^QT 18:15, 6 August 2008 (BST)
27. Kill - I can't remember the last time SURVIVORS got something to help them out! Zombies are already effectivley a walking nuke when there's 5 or more of them, why would we want to give them yet ANOTHER advantage? I mean seriously, you got ruin, can't freerun out of ruin, can't barricade occupied, just in the last few! combat FAK usage gives the whole feeling of a combat medic anyway, who I belive are trained to work in semi-darkness. Next version maybe make it that people with First Aid are unaffected? --Medico 03:31, 8 August 2008 (BST)

    Pay attention! Of course this is moot, cuz this suggestion is going down in flames anyhoo... But as I've explained, Dark Fortresses are a big zombie nerf and thus a survivor buff, WAKE UP!! And smell the whinging... Survivors have ALL the advantages in this game -- with one exception, namely zombies can stand right up again when shot. But other than that, zombies have to metagame their ASSES off to be effective. Survivors don't. Try playing a zombie (without vulturing off a coordinated horde) if you don't believe me. --WanYao 07:17, 10 August 2008 (BST)

    After being PKed a few times I did with LtZurSee (the only one linked from my profile) and found it wasn't that hard. Was a little while back mind you... --• LtZurSee slapped your nose with a newspaper for a heal from CORAM (0 seconds ago) 15:22, 13 August 2008 (BST)

28:: Since infectious bites are just that, infectious, it wouldn't matter if visibility was high or not, as the FAK would still work it's antibiotic majicks on the virus.--Johnny Fate 04:36, 14 August 2008 (BST)

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