UDWiki:Administration/Vandal Banning/Archive/2009 06

e Vandal Banning Archive

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This page is for the reporting of vandalism within the Urban Dead wiki, as defined by vandalism policy. On this wiki, the punishment for Vandalism is temporary banning, but due to security concerns, the ability to mete out this punishment is restricted to System Operators. As such, regular users will need to lodge a report for a Vandal to be banned from the wiki. For consistency and accountability, System Operators are requested to note on this board their actions in dealing with Vandals.

Guidelines for Vandalism Reporting

In dealing with Vandalism, time is often of the essence. As such, we ask that all users include the following information in a Vandalism report:

• A link to the pages in question.

Preferably bolded for visibility. If the Vandalism is occurring over a sufficiently large number of pages, instead include a time range of the vandalism attempt, or alternatively, a link to the first vandalised page. This allows us to quickly find the damage so we can quickly assess the situation.

• The user name of the Vandal.

This allows us to more easily identify the culprit, and to check details.

• A signed datestamp.

For accountability purposes, we ask that you record in your request your user name and the time you lodged the report.

• Please report at the top.

There's conflict with where to post and a lot of the reports are missed. If it's placed at the top of the page it's probably going to be seen and dealt with.

If you see Vandalism in progress, don't wait for System Operators to deal with it, as there may be no System Operator online at the time. Lodge the report, then start reverting pages back to their original form. This can be done by going to the "History" tab at the top of the page, and finding the last edit before the Vandal's attack. When a System Operator is available, they'll assess the situation, and if the report is legitimate, we will take steps to either warn the vandal, or ban them if they are on their second warning.

If the page is long, you can add new reports by editing the top report and placing your new report above its header in the edit screen.

Before Submitting a Report

• This page, Vandal Banning, deals with bad-faith breaches of official policy.
• Interpersonal complaints are better sorted out at UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration.
• As much as is practical, assume good faith and try to iron out problems with other users one to one, only using this page as a last resort.
• Avoid submitting reports which are petty.

Vandalism Report Space

Administration Notice Talk with the user before reporting or accusing someone of vandalism for small edits. In most cases it's simply a case of a new user that doesn't know how this wiki works. Sometimes assuming good faith and speaking with others can avoid a lot of drama, and can even help newbies feel part of this community. Administration Notice If you are not a System Operator, the user who made the vandal report, the user being reported, or directly involved in the case, the administration asks that you use the talk page for further discussion. Free-for-all commenting can lead to a less respectful environment. Administration Notice Warned users can remove one entry of their warning history every one month and 250 edits after their last warning. Remember to ask a sysop to remove them in due time. You are as responsible for keeping track of your history as the sysops are; In case of a sysop wrongly punishing you due to an outdated history, he might not be punished for his actions.

June 2009

User:Nubis

Nubis (talk | contribs | logs | block | IP Check | vndl data | discuss)

As Midianian's Nubis A/M case, only it's vandalism not misconduct. See here and here. --xoxo 06:53, 5 June 2009 (BST)

And it's been judged misconduct. Those edits are still the basis of a misconduct case, going to multiple admin sections with what amounts to pretty much the same thing is forum shopping. Sure, we don't have a guideline against forum shopping, that doesn't mean you have to take your vendetta to every page you know. ;) --Mr. Angel, Help needed? 13:47, 5 June 2009 (BST)

What vendetta? And it hasn't been taken to demotions, yet ;) --xoxo 07:28, 6 June 2009 (BST)

User:Iamlegend

Iamlegend (talk | contribs | logs | block | IP Check | vndl data | discuss)

Verdict	Vandalism
Action taken	Perma

Stuff. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 20:49, 3 June 2009 (BST)

IP check request. Seems to be an alt of Beelzebub. --Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 21:06, 3 June 2009 (BST)

It does not match, because he's been using proxies for a while now. It's still safe to say he's an alt, and gets the perma.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:09, 3 June 2009 (BST)

User:Iscariot

Iscariot (talk | contribs | logs | block | IP Check | vndl data | discuss)

Verdict	{{{1}}}
Action taken	{{{2}}}

At this point UDWiki:Administration/Misconduct#User:Suicidalangel and #User:Suicidalangel can pretty much be guaranteed to qualify as harassment, even if you ignore the aside comments outside of these areas. Iscariot knows enough to know neither one is the case and he made them simply for the sake of disrupting the wiki; Bad Faith. Enjoy. --Karek^maps?! 14:25, 2 June 2009 (BST)

So. Whats up fellow sysops team?

First things first. This isn't spur of the moment-based-upon-me-getting-A/VBd-and-A/Md so much, but rather the culmination of many months of seeing this shit go on.

Iscariot is a blight upon our community.

Any good he does or has done is outweighed by far by the bad he contributes to our fair (well, somewhat fair) community. Just about every post is degrading towards the sysops team, and many more of his posts are degrading towards newbies and veteran users too. He causes trouble and disrupts normal wiki process, and is unwilling to fix problems he sees in the wiki infrastructure simply because he doesn't have to and it will give him a chance to cause trouble with said problem until it is fixed.

Simply look through his contributions. I literally closed my eyes and scrolled down the list with my scroll nub on my mouse picking out 20 random edits. You know how many of them didn't have to do with harassing the sysops team? 3. Do you know how many of those three didn't harass another user in any way? 1. That edit was on his user page, changing the colours of something.

One single edit. On his user page. 19 edits that were harrassive (this needs to be a word). Why do we let this continue?

When Iscariot first came to the wiki, his behavior was pretty decent, and I actually liked a lot of his contributions from his early days. But soon after he came here, he developed this severe paranoia complex, coupled with a hate mission against the sysops team. Since then, his edits have mostly been shit. That's all you can say really.

This page contains quite bit of evidence of his bullshit, but honestly, just look through his contributions. There is no use keeping him around if this is the way things are going to be.

I move that we take a vote to remove Iscariot for 3 or more months, or a perma-ban. His behavior and actions more than justify this. If he doesn't want to act even semi-civil (hell, that Zombie Lord guy that every one is complaining about? Look how he acts when he's not insulting Pesatyel. Rather good and decent. Whats izzy's problem?), then why should he be allowed to stay?

I don't care so much about the harassment against me specifically, I've dealt with bigger trolls elsewhere, but it's more than just me.

3 or higher. That seems like the only course of action he's going to leave us. Most of the sysops team has agreed that Iscariot is a problem in one way or another, in one place or another. Some don't think that he has done explicit enough vandalism to punish him, fine. But what we all need to realize is that we don't have a civility policy. And by the guidelines "System operators are also given the authority to make decisions regarding actions for which there is no governing policy in place. For example, should a particular action for which there is no policy be disputed, system operators may exercise their best judgment to allow or deny it" we have the power to make this decision. There is no policy, and until then, we have to make a choice on a case by case basis. All of the sysop team needs to come out here, think about it and make a decision based on whats the best for the community, not whats the best for our images. Not whats best to end the drama quickly. If this turns in to a massive shit storm, whatever. It'll happen eventually, we should fix the problem now. Iscariot needs to be removed. He needs to learn a lesson. He's not untouchable, he's not the voice of the community, he's not a martyr for a good cause. He's a problem, and he can be taken care of. The entire community needs to see that just because their isn't a civility policy, doesn't mean we aren't going to step in if it's required. Something should have been done ages ago, so we need to do something now.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 15:16, 2 June 2009 (BST)

Ban He has been given way too many chances. He has not been hounded by the sysop team in any way yet he still attacks them on many (often pointless matters) and he by his own admission contributes nothing. He clearly seems unhappy here and there is no reason he should remain. I submit everything documented on here which should be more than enough to show a history of abuse.

If the sysop team can not remove the biggest blight in the community then A/VB might as well be deleted. Pissant little page edits that are reported as vandalism are nothing compared to a career hostile troll. --– Nubis ^NWO 01:44, 3 June 2009 (BST)

Against - A user shouldn't be forced out of the UDWiki against his will, unless through the vandal escalation system. Iscariot is no doubt a pest to the community, he is a parasite that does nothing except irritate the sysops where he can, when not just editing his own userpages. But that is exactly what Iscariot is- nothing.

I have always refused to believe that a normal user cannot make it by on the wiki without being bullied by him. In my recent experiences, I have gotten by with him on a non-aggressive level by simply ignoring him when possible- and engaging with him on a professional level, when he bites. He accepts it, and moves on. Of course, there will always be users like SirArgo who justify his antagonism and fuel him further, but that is exactly what we are doing now.

Every user deserves the right to reform, and we all know 3 months isn't enough (nor would it make him reform, it would only bring him back more bitter than usual) but a perma is out of the question, for someone who isn't permabannable through VandalData. See here where we don't even respond to his idiotic rants, and we vote Not Misconduct/Vandalism on almost every piece of trash he throws at us (and usually the legit cases to, or so he would say). And how long could he go for? If we hate a user, we have the responsibility as members of the community, not sysops, to ignore him when possible and not fuel more drama. It is not to wait until we are sick of conforming and ban him. It's our responsibility and promise to the community.

He has minimal contributions and minimal influence on the wiki - let's keep it that way, not make him a real martyr.

I, however, am aware at one point the Sysops would have tried the technique of ignoring him in the past... As such, I'm not sure if the sysops can expect anything from me at this point, except to be the new sysop who is uncultured with the op's past with said user. But regardless of any justification I may try to use, my position is simple: unless I have a very large problem with a user, I will never vote to remove them from the community under these circumstances. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 02:36, 3 June 2009 (BST)

Thank you for your input. --– Nubis ^NWO 03:32, 3 June 2009 (BST)

Vandalism 1 week ban and voting for a perma-ban starting. --– Nubis ^NWO 13:45, 3 June 2009 (BST)

What in god's name? Couldn't you have at leased waited for the sysops (and Iscariot) to have a chance to offer some discussion on this page before forcing sysops into the vote? Was a few days' wait just too much for you? We have time on our side, but you still dived into banning Iscariot so he could be denied the chance of defending this all-important case (regardless of the shit he will say given the chance). I am ruling Vandalism on this case, but I am unbanning Iscariot and subsequently considering this case open until the other sysops get their chance to offer input into this case. Regardless of the ruling and your rights as a ruling Sysop, If you ban Iscariot again, I will send you to A/M for pre-emptively banning a user solely to prohibit them from defending their own perma-ban case. There is no other reason why you should be rushing for the end of this VB case so hastily. Please, Nubis, I am not doing this because of my stance on the vote, I merely beg you to wait for some more input and discussion before we throw ourselves into the act of voting. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 15:05, 3 June 2009 (BST)

I agree, this is being far too rushed. I'm not decided about the permaban myself, but the whole thing is ridiculous. Iscariot has not commented on this case a single time as of yet, and is now being denied the chance to defend himself like any other user. Iscariot, during his psychobabble, often talks of "Not being given a fair chance". You'll only be proving him right if he isn't given a chance to speak. As I said, I'm not sure on the permaban, I don't really like Iscariot's wiki actions, but give the man a chance to defend himself like anyone else.-- Adward  15:31, 3 June 2009 (BST)

Not vandalism - if I messed with anyone's sig template, let alone Iscariot's, I'd be expecting a vandalism/misconduct case, even though I would be fairly confident that they wouldn't be successful -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 15:25 3 June 2009 (BST)

Thanks for your input -- Boxy 15:25, 3 June 2009 (BST)

VANDALISM

(Sysops Only)

VANDALISM

1. – Nubis ^NWO
2. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 15:05, 3 June 2009 (BST)
3. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 08:45, 4 June 2009 (BST)

NOT VANDALISM

1. -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 15:25 3 June 2009 (BST)

See Misconduct

Perma-Ban Vote

(Sysops Only)

FOR

1. --– Nubis ^NWO 13:45, 3 June 2009 (BST)
2. --Mr. Angel, Help needed? 14:46, 3 June 2009 (BST)
3. But only because he shows no sign or desire to really work with the sysops, within the established system. He continually claims he has some sort of community consensus to turn and burn on the sysops who have to spend more time dealing with complaints about sysop behavior and guidelines from him than other responsibilities to maintaining the wiki. He has used the pages of the wiki to harass and cause harm (even if that harm is considered annoyance by some) And whereas Harassment is against the established T.O.U. He needs to be gone unless he can indicate some type of willingness to adjust the offensive rhetoric. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 08:52, 4 June 2009 (BST)

AGAINST

1. --D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 14:49, 3 June 2009 (BST)
2. Permban votes come after the month ban, not at the one week stage -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 15:25 3 June 2009 (BST)

   That only applies in general vandalism cases. Here we don't have policy to back up and dictate what we do. His harassment is vandalism over a long period of time, and being that we have no civility policy we must decide what to do on a case by case basis. Don't cite policy or processes when there is nothing citable (should also be a word).--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:06, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   We don't have a policy on civility because the community has rejected them fairly convincingly in the past, so it's not exactly a policy vacuum. This wiki has a long history of tolerating people being asses on pages like suggestions, because it is a place where people's opinions need to be heard, even if it dents a few fragile egos. The only reason Iscariot is being considered for a permban is because of his admin page bullshit annoying sysops, and given that he's been escalated for that in the past, and no doubt will again in the future, there is no need to bypass any escalations just because a few sysops feel put upon. It's laughable that you should consider his cases against you to be harassment when it was you that initiated the whole thing by editing his sig page. You were within your rights to do it, but so should it be that Iscariot has the right to appeal against such treatment -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 03:26 4 June 2009 (BST)

   It's not just civility that's the problem, boxy. Those policies, the few there were, didn't make it because they were bad, not because people are perfectly fine with abusive and uncivil behaviour. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 03:38, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   Perhaps so. But it's not in any way a green light to ignore vandal banning escalation policy when uncivil behaviour is deemed vandalism -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 03:47 4 June 2009 (BST)

   The mere fact that there have been many attempts at a policy clearly shows that the users WANT one, but can't agree on much more than harassment is never right.--– Nubis ^NWO 16:48, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   It's laughable because when you actually read, I say I'm basing this more off of his shit with everyone else than with me. And even then not just these cases. Karek is the one that brought the case, calling them harassment, along with other users. Not me. Hell, I can't even make a ruling on the actual case because of how involved I am. If it was only me being harassed I wouldn't even consider this. I'd pursue arbitration, and then end up failing because no one would force him to participate in it, and I'd just have to deal with his shit. This case, Arbies is not an option, nor is it only about me. This isn't a normal case, this isn't one person having to deal with it.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 03:51, 4 June 2009 (BST)

3. As much as I want Iscariot gone, we follow process and a perma-ban vote is called after a month ban.--The General ^{T Sys U! P! F!} 16:36, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   That only applies in general vandalism cases. Here we don't have policy to back up and dictate what we do. His harassment is vandalism over a long period of time, and being that we have no civility policy we must decide what to do on a case by case basis. Don't cite policy or processes when there is nothing citable (should also be a word).--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:06, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   The General isn't really a sysop. This is like his what 3rd time ever on A/VB? Don't expect him to know policy. Also, don't expect him to have a clue about the history of Iscariot. General and I went round and round about the move page ability because he didn't realize that Iscariot decided that every group tied in with DEM needed to be under DEM. (that being one of the many shit storms Izzy stirred up for no good reason other than to support his own wiki lawyering bitching). --– Nubis ^NWO 16:48, 4 June 2009 (BST)

4. I very much dislike Iscariot and think the wiki would be better off without the drama he causes, however if we want to get rid of him we do it the right way, or not at all. -- Cheese 17:37, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   The right way is to say this is fucking enough and ban him. --– Nubis ^NWO 16:48, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   1. That only applies in general vandalism cases. Here we don't have policy to back up and dictate what we do. His harassment is vandalism over a long period of time, and being that we have no civility policy we must decide what to do on a case by case basis. Don't cite policy or processes when there is nothing citable (should also be a word). So technically, this is the right way, not the only way, because as I've said there is no policy for incivility or harassment, so we do what we have to.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:06, 3 June 2009 (BST)

5. Banning people we don't like? No thank you. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:43, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   It's not banning people we don't like, it's banning disruptive users. Banning people we don't like is like getting rid of Izumi. She was also disruptive at first with Grim breathing down her neck, but she could easily have stayed on if Grim hadn't been a hardass. Now, we ban her simply because "we don't like her". Iscariot is a vandal, not in any policy defined way though.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:06, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   He's a vandal in the his edits are not good faith way. Which is the core of vandalism. Don't say that his acts are anything close to good faith. --– Nubis ^NWO 16:48, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   And here I was thinking we banned Izumi for the constant attempts to circumvent the original ban. What do I know eh? Judging from the case above Iscariot is a vandal, as defined by the policy. The policy has a permaban option after a months ban. Not a week. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:59, 3 June 2009 (BST)

   And here I was thinking you'd look further than her vandal data. If you look past that and read up on the data, he first few edits were based upon sheer ignorance of our policies. She had no idea that she wasn't allowed to edit groups at first. And by then time someone explained it to her, it was after being warned in a completely unprofessional manner "If you don't care about editting the wiki, then don't. Since you obviously DO care about UD enough to be upset that your suburb got wrecked (AHAHAHA), I doubt that you will enjoy being banned. And if you do enjoy a nice 24hr (if only that), please come back and crow about it, as its entertaining to watch you scream at the top of your lungs how much you DON'T CARE LALALALA. --Karlsbad 04:19, 11 April 2007 (BST)".

   Izumi wasn't just a vandal on her own merit, some of the community and the sysops team helped her become that way. Sometimes due process isn't needed to be followed, some times mistakes can be forgiven without banning someone for a month. Grim was just a black-white rules sort of guy. Same thing happened with Nalikill. He ended up getting banned by grim for "shitting up the admin cases" when it was really more of a case of Grim disliking Nali. And then he ended up getting banned by boxy for changing a user log out falsie. Good faith, but still technically against the rules. Yet, he wasn't liked by a few members of the Ops team, so he ended up getting a month, and then leaving because of the shit Grim kept pulling. Grim probably would have found a way to get Nali banned permanently eventually. Two users well disliked by members of the ops team, yet were still in pretty good faith over all. Nali was a pretty good editor, if not prone to some problems every once in a while. But to be fair, it's not all his fault.

   Iscariot is an entirely different matter though. We have done nothing to give him reason to hate us and treat us and our community the way he does, yet we still let him go and do just about whatever he wants. He's a troll. He's harassive. He makews frequent edits in bad faith. Why should we make ten separate cases to try and convict him when we only need one? Due process has been thrown out the window when it comes to the punishment ladder, if the situation was bad enough. Why are we hiding behind policies that don't exist for this situation and letting him go? We are well within policy to make a decision over this, why are you guys being cowardly and letting it continue? Do you think the community will look at you guys with more esteem and respect if you don't ban him? What happens later when the issue comes up again? Are we just going to let him go again because he hasn't done anything explicitly wrong? Other than, you know, making hundreds of harassive (srsly, I'm adding this to my dictionary) bad faith edits. Which is what our vandalism policy is mostly about, even if it doesn't have something covering civility or harassment. When his shit keeps up, later we're just going to look back and wish we removed him earlier.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 02:54, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   I particularly liked the bit where you said. "Why are we hiding behind policies that don't exist for this situation and letting him go? We are well within policy to make a decision over this, why are you guys being cowardly and letting it continue?" That made me chuckle. For the record I didn't ban Izumi, and neither did you. Grim Did it. If you don't agree with it, you're a sysop, raise that issue. In the meantime, if as you say "He makews frequent edits in bad faith." Do you really think its really going to be hard to find 2 more cases to put through vandal banning?--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 08:55, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   Are you that dense? Have you ever noticed how even trolling edits count as edits? So if I went to your talk page and posted Ross is an asshole 250 times over the course of a month I would still earn my VD de-escalation. That's what his pattern is. Of course, even though he doesn't ask for a de-escalation his minions still raise the issue that he "deserved" one. Or did you not read any of the A?M case you couldn't be arsed to rule on when you were a sysop last time ? --– Nubis ^NWO 16:48, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   Im not that dense. Because, bizzarrely I read the admins guidelines. Spamming my talk page in such a way could in no way be considered good-faith edits. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:41, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   No shit? I mean the fact that we both weren't ops at the time never even crossed my mind. I never said that grim took care of the ban in my previous posts either. No, wait, I did. I also have tried to do something about Izumi's case. I even requested time to work with the user through the wiki where the only time she could comment was directly on my talk page and nothing else. You know what I got? "STFU we dun liek her", and then her subsequent banning. Would it have been hard to try and let me reform this user? No. And with our "assume good faith" policy, and "encourage vandals to reform" policy, letting a potential reformer in shouldn't be much of a problem right? Apparently it is. Would you support letting Izumi back in on the basis of good faith assumption? Especially if I was the one responsible for her actions?

   Also, I chuckled back when you put my comments out of context. "The policy has a permaban option after a months ban. Not a week.". The policy you refer to is the standard vandalism policy, which in itself does not cover harassment. Bad faith edits, yes, but as people have argued before, paraphrase-quote Harshness is allowed because people should be allowed to express their viewpoints /para-quote. Which would mean that if I were to bring a case up on harassment, we'd have to judge it on a case by case basis, and distribute a punishment if decided based upon our thoughts. We don't have a Harassment policy saying that if we find someones behavior unacceptable that we follow the vandal ladder. If we did, then I'd be all for it. And you know what? At any time if I bring up cases about his bad faith harassment in the future, half of them will be shot down on the basis that "NOES, he did nots commits actual vanderlism!", and the other half shot down because I'm "being petty". And should they by some chance be considered vandalism, why is ruling on those cases any different? Due process? Precedent's been set to give a person a harsher punishment than is actual required due to the severity of their actions. Whatever guys. The community isn't going to hate you for something you're well within your rights to do.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 16:25, 4 June 2009 (BST)

   I'm glad we're entertaining each other.:-) I must admit i'm curious about the whole "Sponsoring" of a formally banned user. Challenging Isc and being called petty? That in itself would be bizzarre. Want an escalation? By all means. I'd fully support a months ban. But I still think its not the right approach. Want a harrasment policy, go for it. Having a policy only applying to Developing Suggestions alone, would cut down on a lot and would apply to all. Of course if Isc was banned for a month he couldn't vote against it. Which would be sad. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:09, 4 June 2009 (BST)

6. As Cheese, General, Boxy, and to a lesser extent, Ross. Linkthewindow  Talk  07:13, 4 June 2009 (BST)

User:Beelzebub

Beelzebub (talk | contribs | logs | block | IP Check | vndl data | discuss)

Verdict	Vandalism
Action taken	Perma

Vandal alt of Foxtrot et al.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 00:50, 2 June 2009 (BST)

User:Diyaseb

Diyaseb (talk | contribs | logs | block | IP Check | vndl data | discuss)

Verdict	Spambit
Action taken	Permaban

Spambit removed. =) -- Cheese 11:02, 1 June 2009 (BST)

Damn, edit conflicted. Anyway, a quick skim of the checkuser logs shows that he isn't related to the ones below (the Omega guys,) and his method of attack is different (ads, instead of spam, so he's more of a adbot,) but we could always be looking at a proxy.

Now, where's Axdiao gone? Linkthewindow  Talk  11:05, 1 June 2009 (BST)

He said he'd call back. He broke my heart. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 12:06, 1 June 2009 (BST)