Category talk:Recruitment: Difference between revisions

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=Help Desk=
=Help Desk=
*Need help figuring out how to use / follow / get the most out of the new advert guidelines?  Post here!
*Need help figuring out how to use / follow / get the most out of the new advert guidelines?  Post here!
*Previous discussions? Look in the [[Recruitment/Archive|archive]]s([[Recruitment/Archive2|2]])!
*Previous discussions? Look in the [[Recruitment/Archive|archive]]s([[Recruitment/Archive2|2]] [[Recruitment/Archive3|3]])!
*Try reading this [[User:Bullgod/recruitment_guide|guide]] for a quicker result!
*Try reading this [[User:Bullgod/recruitment_guide|guide]] for a quicker result!
==Sample Question==
==Recruitment Ad==
Blah, blah, blah blah. Blah blah? --[[example page|User: Blah]] 16:53, 17 August 2007 (BST)
Hey, I've been trying to put my recruitment ad up, but DDR took it down because it wasn't in the guidelines.
Its the same one we used for years, so what make it unusable now, as far as formatting go, so that I may condense or fix it so I my put it back up?
Sorry. I just don't know what's wrong with it. I thought it followed all Recruit Ad guidelines.
--{{User:Jerrel Yokotory/signature}}. 04:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)  


==yeah i gots a question==
: Jerrel : you placed the whole code of your 82nd_Airborne_Division/recruit page onto the main recruitment page, instead of linking to it in the way that you're supposed to. Maybe check the code for the recruitment page here and you should be able to work it out (click on edit and see how other groups have added theirs.) It's also shown in the 'format for posting adverts' section at the top of the page, in the blue box. -- [[User:Xyu888|Xyu888]] 1 July 2015 07:28 (BST)
wheres the archive of this page? or did you just delete years worth of discussion?--[[User:Bullgod|Bullgod]] 17:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
:[[Recruitment/Archive|Here]]. Sorry, I archived the part which explained that I created an archive.... - [[User:Whitehouse]] 17:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


=Other Discussion=
::I have to link it? like a link to it wont post the whole recruitment advert though.--{{User:Jerrel Yokotory/signature}}. 00:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)


==New Maintainer==
== question ==
Of the two people who have been maintaining this page, [[User:Whitehouse|Whitehouse]] has left the wiki, and [[User:Iscariot|Iscariot]] reports internet difficulties.  So I'm volunteering to help maintain this page for a while.  If you got a friendly notice that your ad was about to expire, that's why. -- {{User:Atticus Rex/Sig}} 16:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
:if you need any help with shit i have alot of free time lately, and ive been on the recruitment page since there were only three groups on it, so ive seen whats worked in the past and whatnot, all the dissent as to how the system works, blahblahblah, complaining, etc.--[[User:Bullgod|Bullgod]] 21:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
::I'll keep on eye on the monroeville/borehamwood adverts.--{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 21:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Thanks, gents. -- {{User:Atticus Rex/Sig}} 06:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
::::My computer is still dead but I can use a friends pc most of the time if I need/want to. I'll help out whenever I spot anything that needs doing. - [[User:Whitehouse]] 23:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


=Category:Recruitment Rules Discussion=
how do i join a group do thay meet you i need help on the game am a newbie<small>—The preceding [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Jose|Jose]] ([[User talk:Jose|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jose|contribs]]) at an <span class="stealthexternallink">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=history}} unknown time]</span>.</small>
==Overhauling The Page Rules==
:Basically, just contact the group via their wiki page and they should be happy to give you further instructions. Most of the time you'll travel to their location within the game if you're interested in joining the group, since most of the groups are local to a specific region or suburb of the game. For the nomadic groups, they'll give you information on where to meet them at the moment. In the meantime, you should be fine to survive in the game as a newbie for as long as you need to. I started off alone in the game with all of my characters for at least their first few weeks, and had no issues making due. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 03:17, 10 April 2010 (BST)
So, with the age of the page we've found quite a bit of drama arise from a few things and some discussion has been under consideration about how to change the presiding rules. Category:Recruitment has been a great place holder for a more able system since it was thrown together by [[User:Whitehouse|a user]] but has started to experience significant growing pains as it has become more part and parcel of the game's Recruiting Structure.  


It is about time we put them to a discussion here and seriously begin about trying to implement the changes seen as necessary to the growth, usability, fairness, and over all likability of this page as a user tool so that it can continue to serve in a growing and valued capacity for the years to come or until such time as a better system arises.
==Aesthetics==


Some changes that have been proposed and discussed for this purpose are as follows;
Looking over the big ol' block of text at the start of the category, I get the feeling that improperly-formatted ads crop up so often due to the imposing nature of so much rules text. I'll probably knock up a more user-friendly approach to the rules tonight, provided I'm not shouted down. Anyone else feel this page could do with a sprucing up? {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 14:10, 2 April 2010 (BST)
*The organizational limitation that places the advertisements in alphabetical order is counter intuitive and probably not the best idea for the page. Separating advertisements by group type first and alphabetical last makes more sense but, shouldn't be subject to a policy in and of itself. It's something that may need to be semi-annually altered as the need arises or better means appear. Cementing it in policy makes it that much more difficult to fix as necessary. As of current the major groups types in-game are [[Zombies]], [[Survivors]], and [[PKer]]s.
:Yep, spruce the shit out of it. It's ugly. --{{User:Lady Clitoria/Sig}} 16:19, 2 April 2010 (BST)
*Drop the advertisement size limits. They're extremely restrictive and don't actually serve any real valid purpose other than to try and prevent inclusion limit breaking. That can be managed by other means, possibly even by placing the advertisements on the page itself like they were originally.  
::Agreed. It's extremely imposing for newbies and throws them for a loop (or else puts them off entirely) quite often. If we can provide just a simple block of text to copy/paste here, some simple instructions for what to do on their template recruit page, and a few other guidelines for what is allowed in terms of height/width, etc., then we'll be good. Right now though, it's monstrous. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:47, 2 April 2010 (BST)
*Completely remove the 600 pixel limit and any reference to a similar limit. It has absolutely no purpose that proper maintenance of the page wouldn't itself provide.
:::While you're at it, move the contents list lower. Makes it more readable. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 22:49, 2 April 2010 (BST)
*Removal of ''all'' page maintenance based rules that are not considered essential to the page. This includes anything that can be redundantly classified as covered under the breaking of the page clause; Headers, Oversized Inclusions, Too Many Inclusions, Width Altering Advertisements, Oversized Advertisements, Categorization Mistakes, etc.
::::[[User:Misanthropy/Sandbox10|How does that look]]? I tried using the colour progression from my previous rehash of the SugHead template, though I think the bottom one is a little off. I might try it with all of the contents of the recruitment page as well, see how it stacks with the table of contents. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 01:12, 3 April 2010 (BST)
*Alter date removal for groups, the current way it is enforced is overly constant and  a hassle that makes the page not worth bothering with. Groups on the stats page shouldn't need to re-verify that they are active every 14 days, you already know the answer to that. Groups that aren't on the stats page, however ''should'' be warned that they may be required to prove they are active upon inquiry. This may include timestampping if that is deteremined to be the best method.
:::::The color progression is fine, but the text needs cleaning up (looks like you just copied what we had, which gives us a good starting place, but it still needs work). For instance, in the second box, all of the italicized stuff should go (you wouldn't believe how much it confuses newbies), and it really should be just a block of code that they can copy/paste and swap out a few keywords for. The third block of text needs cleaning up as well, in terms of what all it says. Right now, it's too wordy and too "wall o' text". If we could condense it down, that'd be nice. As for the fourth box, I really don't like the phrasing that some of it uses (e.g. "as a rough guideline"). Make it a concrete statement or else don't have it at all.
*Add a section of Maintainer Guidelines, this is not rules for how to maintain the code of the page but rather standards for removal of advertisements, the previously suggested text of such and area was simply;
**{{Divquote||Any advertisements that do not meet then minimum standard of requirements outlined on this page above can be removed by any user at any time so long as due notice is provided to the group in question and the user who placed the advertisement if so possible. To not give fair notice of removal or need for alteration is vandalism and should be reported to [[A/VB]].}}
*Remove requests to self-moderate advertisements in favor of a standard notice on the page informing users that Advertisements may be altered by a user working to make them viable for use on the page. This is simply a means of informing users that substitution and other fixings that may be needed for the proper functioning of the Advertisement and this page may be done and does not provide for significant or severe alteration of the advertisement, if such changes are needed it should be removed and the Author informed of why.
*By and large alteration and simplification of the Eligibility rules to something more akin to [[UDWiki:Administration/Policy_Discussion/Recruitment/Old#Eligibility|This]]. This includes the alteration of the "DEM Rule".
*Restructuring and removal of most of the Formatting rules to more accurately reflect the new system and to provide more ease with which to read and follow.
Everything above is open for discussion at this point and improvements or opinions are more than welcome, encouraged even. That is what this whole section is for after all.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 08:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
:I am a bit weary about placing groups in their "sections"-there has been drama on the [[North Blythville]] page on the listing of [[TZH]] as a "pro-survivor" group, and similar disputes over the [[PK]] on their pages. Might want to add that it's up to the group to list themselves where ever they want, and other editors can't change it.
:I would rather keep the page as templates, but that said, I'm no technology expert, and if that is stupid from a technical POV, then don't listen to me :). But, yeah, as for size limits, ether remove them, or double them (to roughly five hundred.)
:Agree on the pixel limit, as long as they are not too big (Pictures that are unnecessarily large may be removed?)
:Agree on the useless rules. Moving on...
:I agree with Wan's rule below. Groups with over twenty members are excluded to any "activity" rule, and groups under twenty should just have to timestamp once every few months.
:I've stated my opinion on taking people to A/VB-some sort of "soft warning" would be needed so that newbies don't get unnecessarily warned. Does "fair notice" cover adverts that are clearly breaking the page (that is, they can be removed intermediately, with a warning on the group's talk page?)
:I agree with Wan below on the DEM rule. But if this isn't clear enough, remove all references to all in-game groups.
:Finally, Rosslessness stated that someone should write a guide on "how to have an advert and not have it removed." I'll write such a guide once we finally settle on some guidelines for this page.
::{{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 09:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
:::*Fair notice essentially only covers adverts that are up for removal for other reasons. This does not include any actions needed for the page's functioning, such as adverts that break the page. Although it's still generally expected that you inform the user of why their ad has been removed.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


:::::As far as the changes you made though, I like them. And in response to Ross, I'd keep the TOC where it is. Bumping it down would bump into some ads and would also detract from the point of the page by making the entire top part being about the rules of the place. I'm almost tempted to suggest we pull the guidelines out to a separate page where we provide full instructions. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 05:09, 3 April 2010 (BST)
::::::Condensed. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 20:34, 3 April 2010 (BST)
:::::::You mind if I tweak a few things with it? I really like the way it's looking, but there are a few grammar/typo issues, as well as some other stuff I'd shift around a bit (e.g. the info about categories needs to mention <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> and should probably be in its own code box as well; I have some ideas for how it could be done). {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:10, 3 April 2010 (BST)
::::::::Sure, work away. Don't you be stealing my European vowels though! {{Grr}} {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 22:12, 3 April 2010 (BST)
:::::::::Actually, as I started working on it, I realized I had a lot of ideas for changes, some of which kinda contradict what I was saying earlier, in fact, so I'm setting it up in my own Sandbox and should have an example up in a bit. It's a bit longer than what you have, but gives them a step-by-step set of instructions broken down similarly to how you did it...kinda. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 02:40, 4 April 2010 (BST)
::::::::::Make it ''pretty''. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 02:42, 4 April 2010 (BST)
:::::::::::[[User:Aichon/Sandbox/Demo5|Here]]. It's not any prettier than yours, but I tried to give comprehensive instructions while making them approachable and clear. A few issues I saw people having before were confusing what code goes where and forgetting to put the categories on their recruit page. By providing a clear delineation between the instructions that apply to the recruit page and those that apply to the Recruitment page, I'm hoping we won't have as many mistakes of that sort. It's definitely longer than your idea, Mis, but I'm hoping it makes up for it by having instructions that are spelled out a bit more (especially when it comes to the categories). Thoughts? Parts that can be cut? Bad ideas? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 05:49, 4 April 2010 (BST)
::::::::::::Few spelling mistakes is all, otherwise perfect. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 05:54, 4 April 2010 (BST)
:::::::::::::Feel free to correct my "mistakes" if you'd like. :P I didn't see any American English spelling mistakes, nor did my spell-checker alert me to any as I was typing it up, but if there are any, or if you just want to add the extra vowels you folks use, feel free to do so. I've got no problems with that. Before we go changing things, any other opinions from the peanut gallery? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 06:41, 4 April 2010 (BST)
::::::::::::::Yeah, Aichon, that looks good. - {{User:Goribus/Sig}} 04:12, 15 April 2010 (BST)


These are just some rough drafts for some of the rules... Please feel free to "tweak" them.  
==Magic Words for timestamps==
I just now noticed that a few groups were using the <nowiki>{{CURRENTMONTH}}, {{CURRENTDAY}}, and {{CURRENTTIME}}</nowiki> magic words [[Hard_Knock_Life/Recruitment|in]] [[RDD/Recruit|their]] [[Red_Rum/Recruit|templates]] so that they could circumvent having to update their timestamp. The rules for the page say no included templates, but the magic words are not technically templates, yet they still are handled like an inclusion and require processing by the server. Plus, they clearly circumvent the spirit of the guidelines by allowing the ads to be posted ad infinitum, even if the groups go bust. I was thinking it might be prudent to contact the groups and ask that they update by hand instead. Thoughts? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 09:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
:Wipe their ads, and tell them to re-add them without the magic words. As you tell them, they're templates in all but name, and are a pretty blatant circumvention of the guidelines. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 10:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
::Awwwwww. :( {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 22:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
::Pull 'em. --[[User:Johnny Bass|Papa Johnny]] 22:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Since all three of the groups are updated by wiki regulars, I'll be nice and get in contact with them and give 'em a week to change them, rather than deleting them outright with no notice. Misanthropy, consider this me contacting you. :P {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 03:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
::::Consider it changed as of several hours ago. :P {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 03:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
You people suck. Moreover, '''this is in breach of no rules''' and I maintain that we have every right to use this method.<blockquote><small>[[:Category:Recruitment#Format for Posting Adverts|Format for Posting Adverts]]:</small><br/>''It is the group’s responsibility to update the timestamp to prevent the advert being deleted. Updating the timestamp may and should be done at any time while the group is still recruiting.''</blockquote>[[Red Rum|We're]] still recruiting and will be recruiting until such time as we or (more likely) the game are no longer around. I instituted this update method because I didn't want to have to make some bullshit form-stamping edit every so often for absolutely no useful reason. The timestamp is being updated, why should you care what method we use? Answer: You shouldn't.<blockquote><small>[[:Category:Recruitment#Format for Advert Content|Format for Advert Content]]:</small><br/>''No templates are allowed in your advert '''for technical reasons'''.''</blockquote>The "technical reasons" alluded to would be the [[wikipedia:wikipedia:Template limits|template inclusion limit]]. The [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words variables] used are not expensive and are subject to no such limit, thus this does not apply. Nice try though. {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 08:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


*I suggest that "DEM rule" goes. Out the friggin' window. Replace it with the following: ''"Alliances and organisations consisting of several independent groups may  be listed. However, if an alliance wishes to be listed, its member groups may not be listed again seperately."'' Combined with the relaxing of the length/content rules, this should allow alliances the flexibility they need to list all their members. What does everyone think? --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 08:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
While perhaps not in the spirit of the rules, I see no harm in the use of the magic words as long as the group is still active. A messege on the group's talk page (similar to the current Recruitment page warnings) every 3 months I think wouldn't be too much hassle. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 08:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
*Groups should be asked to update their registration. However, 14 days is absurd! Should be more like every 60 days or so. And, any group with an active membership of 20 or more is exempted from this. --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 08:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
:I agree. The DEM rule must die. It's caused too much drama, and your proposed rule is '''much''' better (that is, there being a choice.)
:I do agree that timestamping once every two weeks ''may'' be a bit short, once a month would be better, and groups on the stats page (that is, with over twenty members,) don't have to timestamp. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 09:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
::Or, everyone has to timestamp every 60 days. Across the board. That's not really unreasonable. But 14 days ''is'' ridiculous. --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 09:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
:::That's fine. Quite frankly, if you can't be bothered timestamping once every two months, then why have an ad? 60 days (with a warning at 50 if someone can be bothered, (I'll make a template if this becomes consensus,) is fine. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 09:50, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
::::The problem with timestamping is it is essentially saying "Change your advert this often". Most people won't have anything to add to it and won't have any reason to edit it.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 10:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::I more see timestamping as a way so that we can check that groups are active. As Mid said below, this is also so that people who use this page to find a group don't find dead groups. Two weeks is too short, but anywhere between a month and two would be fine. We must also enforce this across the board. Large groups shouldn't get a free pass on this. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 07:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
::The only problem i see is with "events/alliances" like the Big Bash and Mall tours... Should they be allowed to recruit without having to "delist" groups who are taking part? I dunno.... --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 09:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
:::In that case, we would have to write in a clause about that. How about:
::::''Short term events are not covered by this rule-that is, the event, and all groups taking part, can still keep their ads.''
:::I only came up with that in less then a minute, but thoughts (and yes, the wording would have to be fixed, but you get the idea.) {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 09:50, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


The reducing bureaucracy part is fine, but...
:I disagree Revenant, you lack a timestamp entirely. Displaying the current time and date in no way replicates the function of a timestamp, which is used to record specific dates. Further, if we're going to play "abuse the wording" I would argue you don't meet this part either: ''It is '''the group’s''' responsibility to update the timestamp...'' since it's automated and requires no edits by the group. {{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 17:16, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


First, I'd prefer the page was kept in alphabetical order. Organizing it by group type is going to hurt the more curious groups (like dual nature groups). These are groups that badly need recruitment as they don't usually get that many members. The more regular type of groups shouldn't be favoured just because they're more regular.
Bumping this topic for re-discussion, since two groups are still using it (looking at you again, Rev). My opinion hasn't changed. I think it breaks the spirit of the rules, and Rooster's point is very valid as well. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 10:47, 12 August 2010 (BST)


Second, timestamping '''must''' stay, for all groups. Big groups shouldn't be exempt from this, as they actually need the page ''less'' than the small groups (they already have members). The time period could be changed to a month or even two, but the timestamp is needed to keep the page comfortable to use. It's not about verifying that the group is active, it's about verifying that the group is ''recruiting''. If the groups can't be bothered to update the timestamp, do you really expect them to bother removing their ad when they're no longer actively recruiting? Or even when they're disbanding?
==Splitting up Recruitment==
At the moment, Recruitment is so big it's unwieldy. It takes close to twenty seconds to load on my 1.5mbs broadband, and it would be unfair to assume that everyone has this internet. Also, with groups spread across different letters of the alphabet, it's difficult to find a group for a particular type of character.


You need to remember that the page doesn't exist solely for the groups that want to recruit, but also for the people looking for a group, the actual recruits. Without timestamps the page would quickly get crowded and that could easily put off people from reading the page at all. Anyway, it's probably more effective to have your ad occasionally on a short list, than permanently on a huge list.
I'm proposing that we turn this page into a disambig for three new pages:
*[[Survivor Group Recruitment]]
*[[Zombie Group Recruitment]]
*[[Pker Group Recruitment]]


There's one aspect of the page it isn't using to the fullest. It's a category page. All the pages in the category are listed at the bottom. This could be taken advantage of by moving the inactive groups' ads to another category and pointing people towards the list of pages, while keeping the amount of ads included on the page itself small. You'd have your ad linked to from the page as long as your group is active, but you could get additional visibility if you're willing to bother with the timestamping. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 16:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Rules, etc, will remain on the main [[:Category:Recruitment]] page. A reminder will be on all of it's subpages to check the rules.  
*The reason for the changing of the formatting isn't actually about favoring the groups so much as favoring the user trying to find what group he wants to join. Dual Natured can certainly be added to the list of group sections, they slipped my mind when I was making that list.
*I don't really see the point to timestamping except sending a big FU to people who don't frequently update all their wiki pages. There are groups(large ones even) that don't have members that edit the wiki, timestamping doesn't help people trying to find a group find a group, it limits that groups exposure for not adding four ~ every x days. The benefits gained are simply nothing that page maintenance and actual inquiries into whether a group is active wouldn't do better, or that Stats.html doesn't already do in the case of groups that appear on it. If a group doesn't want to recruit new members they can always remove the advertisement, shunting it to the category portion of the page is little better than removing any reference simply due to the fact that this page is in actual use. If that solution turns out to be the one decided upon it would be best to actually split this into a page and a category with a descriptive text directing users to the category list for finding groups advertisements that aren't featured.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
===Responses===
I've avoided much of the drama since it's spilt over to more pages than I can be bothered to follow, however since as these 'new' ideas seem to have taken on a terminal course I thought it'd be better for me to respond and give my opinion on the whole thing. I took over the majority of the maintenance of this page back at the end of April, which means I've been maintaining it for approximately eight months. In that time despite hinderance from sysops and the exceedingly vocal complaints from one group I have managed to make this page run consistently and fairly. No special treatment is given to any group during my maintenance, all groups are subject to the same guidelines that are stated clearly at the top of the page. These rules have been challenged and discussed before, unfortunately the drama whoring of one person in particular has seemed to have ignited a crusade for short sighted rules changes that will damage the running of this page.


I will now give my own responses to the majority of suggestions found above:
This should make load times a bit more reasonable and make it easier for new players to find a group. Also, thanks to SA for providing the motivation to write this post :D. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 10:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
#'''Separating the sections into group types''' - This is simply idiotic. There's evidence on this page that the person who started this drama doesn't perceive certain groups to be pro-survivor, all this will create is edit wars and flaming over whether a group 'belongs' in that category according to another group's subjective opinion. The current method allows groups to define their own group type to their own satisfaction without censure. An ad cannot be removed for anything in this section, the [[RRF]] can call themselves pro-survivor if they want and the ad won't be removed.
#'''Advert size limits''' - Those ad limits are there for a reason. This is a ''low tech'' browser game. People shouldn't need a higher spec computer to view an official resource than they do the game. There have already been examples of pages on this wiki freezing computers that can play the game with ease. These limits prevent such occurrences on this page. These current limits are clear and open, and do not require any subjective judgement from anyone. An ad gets removed if it's 201 words and left if it's 199. Making it a subjective call by having no written limits invites the beginning of biased maintenance and the associated drama.
#'''Remove the picture size limit''' - I don't actually remove many ads based on this, this is therefore one of the least policed rules on the page. However this written limit is in place for the same reasons as above, it prevents people being subjective and therefore showing favouritism on the page and helps those with lower spec machines.
#'''"Removal of ''all'' page maintenance based rules that are not considered essential to the page"''' - I've maintained this page for eight months. All of those rules are essential. Someone who actually maintained the page would understand this.
#'''Timestamp validity changes''' - Some of you might think this sucks, but it serves two very important purposes. It is a very convenient limit to those maintaining the page, going above that will lead mistakes to made by those maintaining it (which now could apparently lead to escalations) especially around the month changeovers. The most important reason is an indication of input from the person placing the ad to their potential recruits, who really wants to join a group where they can't update a signature within two weeks? This page is here for newbies, not for people with an established wiki presence who can find groups easier. We're on the main page for these newbies to find us for that reason. 14 days is an excepted standard amongst wiki projects, suggestions are open for this long, so are promotion bids and both the suburb and radio massacres use this as their timing standard. Anything more is going to lead to a messed up page.
#'''Adding rules for page maintainers and escalate them for failing to do X''' - This is a clause that Karek has inserted to specifically target me. It is well known that I don't use notices and this is his attempt to stealth escalate me. We already have maintainer guidelines, they are the same as the page guidelines, i.e. if it doesn't fit one of the guidelines then it removed. Adding escalations for doing this against the whims of certain sysops will lead to no-one maintaining the page and then imagine the state it will end up in. In eights months I can count the number of vandalism cases against me for removing ads without handing out warnings, can you guess? That's right, none. The community does not consider removal of ads in accordance with the page guidelines to be vandalism, this section is purely to serve Karek's agenda. This also goes contrary to the rest of the wiki, you don't get warnings before your suggestion is removed, you know it'll be open for 14 days when you enter it if you read the rules, you don't get a warnibng before your unused image is deleted, and you can't get that back and you only have 7 days to use that, you don't get a warning before your suburb is removed. All of these examples are precisely the same, however it seems like Karek wants a special case made here, I wonder why? Notice is not required for this maintenance, the edit summaries that are used categorise the reason for removal to the specific rule in question. I was going to standardise these in a help section with reasons and solutions, this whole drama has forced me to cut back my editing of this page, hopefully temporarily.
#'''The Large Group Rule''' - Welcome to controversy. Because this rule is so unfair and targets any successful group? Erm, nope. Do you know the amount of groups that have had problems with the large group rule after their ads were removed? One, yes that's right, the arch-drama-whore herself (the person who admits she turns people away from this wiki) decided it was unfair and caused this entire conflagration. The [[RRF]] don't have a problem with this, the [[Imperium]] didn't have a problem with this, and neither did [[ZEMA]]. This rule exists for one simple reason, to protect the small group that actually needs to use this page from being flooded by ads from the larger groups. At the moment we have 18 groups advertising in the Malton section of the page (how many of those are valid ads I don't know because I've been hesitant to maintain given this drama) that total does not include the DEM (odd how they are trying to advertise all their groups and yet can't even maintain a single one), the Imperium or the RRF. Now if this rule is abandoned, then those three groups are going to add ''nineteen'' ads between them. Three groups are going to more than double the page. That's before we get groups like The Fortress or Extinction adding their smaller components. Remove this rule and you kill the page for the small groups abiding by the spirit of the page. ''"But this rule is unfair because it targets just the DEM!"'' - No, it doesn't. The DEM and the DHPD are named in the guideline as ''examples'', this doesn't target either group, the rules was actually written by a member of the DHPD.... The rule is also (contrary to what certain people would have you believe) enforced on other groups than the DEM, the Imperium and ZEMA have both had ads removed under this rule. ''"But you haven't removed other ads from what I consider a large group!"'' - Contrary to popular belief, I don't have an omniscient ability when it comes to group politics and alliances, but when something is brought to me I investigate it. Notice in the below discussions I had with the DEM, I asked specifically for examples of groups they thought were breaking the rule, they declined to give this information and instead pressed on with wanting the rule removed. You'll notice at the bottom of this page that Kristi accuses me of showing bias towards the Dulston Alliance and not removing their adverts, you'll notice my response. Accusations such as this are ''fucking nonsense'' (I've tried to avoid swearing here for obvious reasons, but this is well deserved), you'll notice she avoids responding to that, because the number of Dulston Alliance adverts on the page was '''zero'''. All this drama about a non-point. Certain groups are automatically removed because their coverage by the large groups rule is without doubt to the person doing the maintenance. I'm open to people bringing me new groups to be included, but I insist to be allowed to speak with them and hear their case first. Of all the people on this wiki I'm probably the best to play this role, as I pick up on the small details and don't allow loopholes, however this was also put before the DEM below and rejected as biased. ''"Well, if the group shows up on the recruitment page you can have an ad!"'' - This is the stupidest alternative to the current rule I've heard in these discussions. You want the maintainers to search another page while doing basic maintenance? Go away, it's hard enough trying to deal with this page at times when work and real life are all on the go. This idea also prevents the fledgling groups this page is made for from advertising, good move. This also discriminates against zombie groups, feeding groan ''forces'' them to have ''exactly'' the same group tag due to the game mechanics, the group tag must be ''Ridleybank Resistance Front'', not ''The Ridleybank Resistance Front'' or ''RRF''. Penalising groups for following the demands of the game is plain wrong. Not to mention this rule can be undone with basic zerging. Create ten characters, set the group affiliation, log on every five days. It costs a player 10 IP hits to do this, still leaving enough to maintain three characters.


Understand, here the rules are blind and black and white. People complain about this wiki's rules being arcane and inconsistent. That's not the case here, whether I like or dislike your group you are entitled to advertise here until the rules say you can't. There's no ''perception'' or ''subjective judgement''. If there were do you think Extinction would be allowed to advertise here whilst I was maintaining the page? I think Extinction are a bunch of zerging scumfucks, and their representative to this wiki is a drama causing retard, but that doesn't enter into my thoughts when deciding to delete their ad.
:I like this idea. But I'd propose that death cult-type groups go in both Zombie Groups and PKer Groups. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 13:57, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
::Letting them double up is effectively extra/unfair advertising. We need to set up the disambig pages so that it's clear which '''one''' each group should fall under. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
:::It used to be like this! I didn't like it when it was changed to the current mess and definitely support changing it back :D --[[User:Karloth_vois|Karloth Vois]] <sup>[[¯\(°_o)/¯]]</sup> 15:50, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
::::Better. Do eet. Do eet naow. -- <small>[[User:Rorybob| <span style="color: #FF9933">Rahrah doesn't remember the age of blinking text.</span>]]</small> 17:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::As Aichon. Most death-cultists seek out life on purpose so much they're pretty much the same as "ordinary" PKers anyway.--[[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]][[User:MisterGame|<span style= "color: maroon; background-color: white">'''''Thadeous Oakley''''']][[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]]</span> 18:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
:'''Vouch''' - :D --{{User:Haliman111/sig}} 17:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
:Going off what I was saying earlier, I'd just make it "Survivor", "Zombie", and "Other", and define the first two as groups who fight for and exist almost always as that side (e.g. traditional survivor and zombie groups, while death cultists are out, since they play as humans sometimes but fight for zombies). The third category would be for everyone else, such as PKers, death cultists, life cultists, dual nature, etc. I think that would fall in line with most people's expectations better, and it should deal with almost all of the fringe cases. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 18:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
:'''For''' On the condition that Aichon's idea is what happens.--{{User:Drawde/Sig}} 18:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
::Not actually a voting section, oh ze whoomanneeteee, get zis up for voting --{{User:Drawde/Sig}} 18:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Voting on mundane stuff like this is stupid. I've never seen the point for pages like this, Suggestions, etc. Consensus is a much better system.
:::That said, Aichon's idea is much better then mine. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 05:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
:What he said. -- <small>[[User:Rorybob| <span style="color: #FF9933">Rahrah doesn't remember the age of blinking text.</span>]]</small> 18:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


We (myself and the other mainatiners) have (or at least had before this drama) here the most efficient and accurate page on this wiki. Ads are either accurate and up to date, or they aren't here. There is no page on this wiki as transparent and up to date than this page. You, the wiki community, will now decide the future of this page. You must make your decision whilst mired in the drama and agendas others and decide if you want this page to degenerate like the rest of this resource has. There are thoughts of updated rules and expanded help for this page, but that can only happen if the page is not crippled by vague and short sighted rules put forward by those with a vested interest for whatever reason.
What about dual nature groups? Zombie groups that also pk when alive? Groups that claim to be survivors but PK (Like The Barrciade Enforcement Patrol?) We have 31 adverts. Thats not a huge amount. Why make the system more confusing for newbs? --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 20:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
:Groups that claim to be survivors but pk will be allowed to list themselves as survivor groups - we don't need the unnecessary drama. 31 ads is still a massive scroll bar, and I don't see how changing this will make it too more confusing. I'm assuming a noob knows that a "survivor group" is. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 05:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


Me? I have no vested interest, this page causes me extra effort which I can, and will, give up if need be. I contribute my experience of maintaining this page, which only Whitehouse surpasses to my knowledge, and my experience tells me clearly that these proposed changes aren't good for the page and are made by people who do not have the best interests of this page in mind. -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 16:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
# '''Keep''' <Is this how we should vote?  I agree with the idea, as it will better organize the recruitment page. My reccomendation, add an Other page or separately add the PKer-zombie, Zker, and so on. An other page would be nice.--[[User:Supercohboy|Supercohboy]] 15:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
:I wondered if you actually tried to consider this from a standpoint that isn't based on the belief that it's out to screw you as opposed to actually for the development of the page. Then I got to point 6 and all question vanished. However, I'll answer some  of the points anyway.
:*Number 2 shows a lack of understanding of computers along with the assumption that these things won't get fixed when found. They will and always have been. The second part is kinda part of the reason why these things need to go, 199 vs 201 just shows the uselessness of such rules. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by deleting an advertisement for ''1 word''. It's not an issue of creating drama but rather that the current system is overly strict with quite literally nothing to show for it, the old one worked ''better'' in regards to advertising and had no such limit.
:*Point three is based on the pre-assumption of ridiculous bias. The type of thing you're claiming as defense for the rule ''is vandalism'', as you said it's not a big issue and thus doesn't need policing. Much less some ridiculously precise and arbitrary size limit.
:*Point four shows why I'm not putting much weight behind your claims that they are important. You start from a false assumption that because things have run amicably that it is because of the rules already in place. It's not, it's because the people who make the advertisements understanding that there is limited space on the page and acting accordingly.
:*Work backwards. You can't determine there is a problem when you don't actually have something showing it to be a problem. You can't ''claim'' timestamps to be more effective than legitimate inquiry simply because it's convenient. Timestamps can always return if they are found to be necessary, right now they don't seem to be in the least.
:*<sup>(6)</sup>Yes, and I also killed [[User:Conndraka|Conndraka]]'s kitten, am really [[User:Grim_s|Grim S]], sued [[Kevan]] for copyright infringement, and raped the Statue of Liberty. Twice.
:**So you're a bad maintainer who doesn't actually care about letting people know their advertisements have been removed. Congratulations. I didn't actually know ''or'' care. However as someone that has been on the other side of it that kind of thing is ''very'' obnoxious and frequently leads to outdated advertisements because the timestamps are long enough to be put out of mind but soon enough that they're frequently dropped due to it. It's not contrary to anything other than a mistaken belief that this is comparative to highly visible and constantly updated suggestions, it's not, there is no parallel there. [[Talk:Suggestions]], however, ''does'' have warnings before removal and always have.
:*Actually, regarding the large groups rule. You listed groups that don't meet the thing that is an issue about it as justification, at least [[RRF|one]] doesn't meet those qualifications because of something I pushed for them to do in the past. Of the groups that ''do'' run into the problem it presents you have absolutely none with current recruitment Advertisements. Those groups would be [[DEM]], [[NMC]], and [[Dulston Alliance]]. [[Extinction]] would have qualified, a year ago and the [[DHPD]] would not have at any point in at least the last 3 years. I don't really think I need to say more than that.
:The rules clearly aren't that black and white, especially when they're being used in the manner you paint above. It seems more that the rules are there to make it ''as hard as possible'' to place and maintain an advertisement simply so that they can be removed frequently and without notice. I ''know'' that isn't what was intended but that is what it has become. As you said yourself; ''1 word too many is too many.''<br />
:This is hardly the most efficient page on the wiki, and is far from the most transparent or up to date. Those honors go to various map and administration pages which have far better turn around. It's not even the best of this type of page, that's [[Talk:Suggestions]] which despite it hitting the inclusion limit from time to time is cycled more frequently, with less conflict, and is a [[Special:Popularpages|proven resource]]. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 17:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


tl;dnr. Seriously, I am getting fucking sick of trying hard to work on this project and getting subjected to walls of text interspersed with drama and peurile ad hominems. I mean '''really'''. A group of us were working seriously to try to fix things... No drama, no bullshit, just working on ideas. And now? I'm ready to walk away.
# '''Keep''' Change PKer to Other. If you are a survivor or zombie it is obvious where to look and if you play a PKer/ZKer/Dual-Nature/whatever then you can take the time to look through Other as there are less of those kinds of groups.--[[User:Zakarus|Zakarus]] 20:50 16 February 2012
#:Nice work coming 2 years too late to the party {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 08:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


Seriously, Iscariot... While you have valid things to say, the way you're saying them has got out of hand. And, I really can't be bothered to read your rebuttal, either, karek, sorry, again -- tl;dnr. But kudos for the effort, I suppose, to all of you. Perhaps you's wanna write a summary for those of us like me without any patience for slogging through the bogs of text? --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 00:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
== hELP REINSTATING? ==
:Ok, I broke down and skimmed all that. :) Here's my 2-1/2 bits worth:  
Hi,
:#) For optimal ease of use groups should be separated into categories. I suggest the following: Zombie, Survivor, PKer and Other/Miscellaneous. ''Groups will be permitted to "self-identify"'' and the only time their wishes won't be respected is when it's ''fucking obvious'' that their classification is bullfeathers, e.g. the MOB trying to call themselves pro-survivor. It might also be possible for a group to be listed under more than one category. This might be how to deal accurately with the Philosophe Knights, for example (list them twice: once in survivor groups and again in PKer groups).  
 
:# I believe that size/length restrictions need to be in place. This, too, is to keep the page as easy to navigate and read for the end user. These restrictions, however, need to be relaxed and also enforced in a relaxed, common-sense way.  
Just wanted to put the DK13 advertisement baqck in place now that i have internet again :) Can someone please help me? Im sure last time i edited the page i got a slapped wrist, so if someone could put the advert i8n place for me, i can just keep it updated!
:# The rules are too long and ''need'' to be pared down. Again, for ease and convenience of use. As it is, the veritable Talmudic textbook of rules is one more obstacle to convenience and ease of use and readability. And, respectfully... Iscariot you say they're ''all'' necessary? Well, I don't necessarily think so and I might respectfully suggest that modified rules, combined with a different style of "moderation" of the page, might render many these detailed rules quite superfluous....
 
:# Timestamps must remain, and be enforced. However, 14 days is absurd. I'd suggest more like 60 days.  
http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/DELTA_KILO_ONE_THREE/recruit
:# Re: the beloved "DEM rule".... Frankly, there seems to be a general consensus on the issue of organisations and alliances and only one person objects to this consensus.  
 
:# Re: penalties. No. No "special penalties" on Recruitment. Recruitment is a community page just like, say, the MIC or the main suburb page or Suggestions (especially cycling, vote striking, etc.) Penalties" should follow standard VB protocol similar to how it's practiced on these sorts of pages. This, too, is a variant of the "ease of use" ethos I've expounded above -- just this time for people maintaining the page. <br>
Thanks guys!!! --[[User:T13|T13]] 01:53, 31 March 2010 (BST)
:--[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 13:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
:If you can add a signature to your recruit page, I'll go ahead and post it for you. Just edit the page you linked and add in your signature there. I'd prefer not to post an ad that doesn't have a signature at all, even if you have plans to fix it later. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 04:28, 31 March 2010 (BST)
::Regarding #6, that is what is intended. Alternative wordings that make it more obvious that it's expected behavior is more than welcomed as this is the second time it's been mistaken as a new penalty instead of a restating of the current status quo of A/VB in regards to moderating this page.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 15:19, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 
::Thanks for that Wan. The only rules I ''really'' want kept are the timestamp rule (expanded to around a month or two,) and keeping the adverts as a templates and in tables. Other then that, most other rules are not needed. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 06:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 
:::Well, we need a ''version'' of the DEM rule... But simple one: you can post an ad for the alliance as a whole, or the alliance isn't listed, but each subgroup can have its own ad. However, loosening the size restrictions allows alliances to properly describe their subgroups. As it is, they don't have the ability to do so properly.
Thankyou Aichon!!! I presume by signature you meant timestamp? So i put one in :) I will check back here later this evening, see if the advert is in place, and then presumably delete this series of posts? Cheers! --[[User:T13|T13]] 19:21, 31 March 2010 (BST)
:::So this goes out to Iscariot -- though also to anyone else with the knowledge.... Within the context of the majority consensus that seems to exist, can you help us draft some guidelines for size, etc. that will be workable? --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 07:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 
::::About the DEM rule-yeah, I forgot about that. Have you thought of what to do about Big Bashes and Mall Tours? I've posted my (rushed) idea above. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 07:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
==Common Sense==
:::::Hmm, maybe about time I actually said something..
Just wondering why there isn't a rule in place that lets us keep groups in the top ten active on the list without being based on a timestamp. Just seems like common sense that we shouldn't be deleting groups like DEM or ACC(which was just done) from here just because they have a smaller wiki presence than groups like the RRF, especially since groups like ACC who have been around for a ''very'' long time should be being given the benefit of the doubt about activity since people would notice their absence. Then again this page is pretty outdated anyway since stats page links now go directly to the wiki pages for those groups, might as well just delete the whole thing altogether. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 20:10, 27 March 2011 (BST)
:::::*"DEM rule" - the events part: Just say that events due to their temporary nature can have their own ad, and groups taking part in the event may retain their own ads as long as the event only advertises itself and not the member groups. That is a major difference from an alliance, an alliance would look to advertise its member groups because members rarely join straight into an alliance but join one of the member groups, events look to advertise just the event itself. So yeah, I think I just ripped of Link's idea from above.
:I'm curious to see a response to this since it's kinda a big deal. This is me bumping it back into people's watchlists. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 14:20, 13 May 2011 (BST)
:::::*Next thing I wanted to mention was how the groups are organised. There seems to be objection to the alphabetical order, so I'll just take a second to explain: previously we had by type (survivor, zombie, pkers, etc.), until some people began complaining that their type was listed below the other types. So alphabetical was chosen as most neutral. I'm not saying type wouldn't be good, just do expect someone to whine when their type gets listed further down the page.
::I'm not a fan of one set of rules for one group and another set of rules for others. I'm not sure I'd be behind deleting it, either since not all active groups are on the stats page. There's probably groups with only 9 members that would be excluded from stats but still would like to recruit via wiki. [[:Category:Recruitment]] may not be the best way to recruit but its pretty established and newbies do in fact look at it. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>14:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)</sub>
:::::*Time extended.. ok. On one hand the page will probably get a little longer due to less zealous clearing, but it would be nice for the groups to not have to change the timestamps so often. I'd rather see one month than two, but you wont find me protesting if you decide on two.
::Good arguments for either way IMO. On one hand it makes sense because being that big implies that the group is still ''active''. However, they might not be having a large ''recruitment'' drive compared to other groups so giving them a benefit other groups don't isn't so great IMO, especially when it's the smaller groups who need recruitments more. If this were to go to a vote though, I'd probably vote for it though, unless I get convinced otherwise from here on in. -- {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig4}} 14:35, 13 May 2011 (BST)
:::::*You seem to want to lift restrictions (they were mainly in place to limit the possibility of the page being difficult to view for users with lower resolutions, although the text limit is from when all text went on the page and it could cause the page to be hard to edit and rather slow), the only thing I'd ask of you then was to grant users the right to edit ad pages with images that are breaking the page. Something like "by submitting your ad to this page you allow users the right to edit the specifications (not content) of your ad to better fit the page if it is found to be causing viewing problems", the user editing the ad would have to provide a notification on the ads talkpage.
:::I'm not sure it's really understandable to say that a group with 60+ members for over five years isn't actively recruiting or active. That's the only way those groups can maintain those numbers. Take a group like [[MOB]] for example, that horde roughly changes all active non-leader member ship about once a year because if they weren't recruiting at that rate they'd largely be an idled out group. The standard rate of laying down in this game, or any for that matter, is enough that to maintain any group size over about 30 core members this has to be the case. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 14:51, 13 May 2011 (BST)
:::::Yeah.. that's all I had to say. Now Link, uhm.. why do you say "ether"? I'm pretty sure you mean "either" no offence meant, or maybe I misunderstand. - [[User:Whitehouse]] 09:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 
:::::Oh, and as for the large group rule, in case it wasn't already clear: I'd like to see alliance groups being allowed to recruit separately. In fact I'd rather they only be allowed to recruit separately, but that's irrelevant right now. - [[User:Whitehouse]] 09:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Also to note, we already do have a seperate rule for one type of group over another. {{cquote||Large Groups or Organizations with significant subgroups are limited to one advert. This includes groups such as the DHPD and the DEM, they may use their advert to direct players to the separate sub-groups.|[[:Category:Recruitment]]}}
::::::That edit specifications thing falls under what I consider standard page maintainability. So it certainly should be allowable.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 09:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Which is funny because I thought the [[Recruitment/Archive3#Overhauling_The_Page_Rules|consensus]] had been to remove this rule in place of something [[UDWiki:Administration/Policy_Discussion/Recruitment/Old#Eligibility|more general]]. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 15:18, 13 May 2011 (BST)
::The most constructive change discussed here would be the adjustment of a required timestamp to monthly or bi-monthly updates, a change which the M.U.M. would support.  Bi-weekly is just a nuisance.  [[User:Mayor MC Cheese|Mayor MC Cheese]] 04:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 
==Current page is broken?==
 
I thought for a second my advert had somehow done it, but I undid my change and it was still broken... I am no wiki expert. Can someone please fix it? Apologies if it was somehow my fault (like I said, I undid my change and it looked already broken...) --[[User:Lieutenant Tux|Lieutenant Tux]] 20:58, 2 June 2011 (BST)
:It's not your fault, it's [[Militaire Sons de Veille/Recruitment|this ad]]. I'm trying to find what's wrong with it now. I blame Aichon, it's a mangling of a page of his. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 21:16, 2 June 2011 (BST)
::Ok thought it was the SoC ad. Glad to know I can stop barking up the wrong tree and someone else has eyes on it. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>21:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)</sub>
:::I accept no responsibility for misuse of my code without my consultation. >_> I wasn't even aware they had done that until I read this. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:23, 25 July 2011 (BST)
 
==AZDC ad==
 
Why is this ad creating a separate 2nd level heading? I looked at the ad and the page code but I can't figure out why it's creating the "2.2 ANTI-ZOMBIE / DEATH CULTISTS" line in the page summary. --[[User:Uroguy|Uroguy]]<sup>[[Zookeepers|TMZ]]</sup> 20:12, 15 April 2012 (BST)
:It's something in the AZDC ad's page code. Does it matter?  It's not breaking the page or anything. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 20:24, 15 April 2012 (BST)
::Nevermind, I'm blind. It's because the AZDC ad is using a header. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 20:33, 15 April 2012 (BST)
:::Yeah it has a subheader. Just checked and its not allowed. I'm a member of said group so will fix the subheader issue. I think it was for stylistic purposes more than anything. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>20:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)</sub>
::::I swapped the header codes for big and underline codes for a similar effect.  It shouldn't screw up the Recruitment page now. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 20:39, 15 April 2012 (BST)
:::::That's fine. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>20:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)</sub>
==Need a clarification==
[[:Category:Recruitment#Format_for_Advert_Content|The rules]] says, "''No templates are allowed in your advert for technical reasons. Before you put up the advert, use subst to replace any template calls with the template's code.''"  Can I get a clarification on that, please?  When we say template, is this every single thing in the brackets, or are such things such as [[Template:Lgradient]] and other utility templates excluded and "Templates" here means something like [[Template:DramaLlama]]? --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 22:02, 25 May 2012 (BST)
:There are no exclusions for "utility" templates. A template is a template, and that rule is in place for technical reasons, so it draws no distinction based on the purpose of the template. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:31, 25 May 2012 (BST)
::I really don't know...'cause the RRF's ad is using utility templates as well...They're using [[Template:c]].  That's why I'm pretty confused about this template stuff. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 22:36, 25 May 2012 (BST)
==800x600==
Out of complete curiosity, I adjusted my PC's display settings to 800x600, and adjusted my browser to view things in full screen (without that Status Bar in the bottom of the browser or the URL and Bookmarks tabs and stuff on the top of the browser), and, well...
 
[[Category:Recruitment#Format_for_Advert_Content|The rules]] state two things.
 
#"''When viewed on an 800*600 resolution, as a rough guideline your advert should not exceed 800px in height.''"
#"''When viewed on an 800*600 resolution, your advert should not cause a horizontal scrollbar to appear.''"
 
Now here's the funny part...Almost every single ad on this page right now do not meet the standards.  Here are the groups not in accordance with the rules:
*[[Annus Horribilis]]
*[[Anti-zombie squad]]
*[[CAPD]]
*[[Cobra (group)]]
*[[Department of Emergency Management]]
*[[Fortress]]
*[[Militant Order of Barhah]]
*[[New Roman Republic]]
*[[Organization XIII]]
*[[Philosophe Knights]]
*[[Reddit_survivors]]
*[[Ridleybank Resistance Front]]
*[[Skynet Defense Network]]
*[[Soldiers of Crossman]]
*[[Umbrella Corporation]]
 
That is 15 out of 25 total groups on this page that does not meet the standards laid out in the rules.  Rules are rules, and I'm quite reluctant to remove all of these...What should we do? --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 23:41, 25 May 2012 (BST)
:What the rule means is not to have a ''fixed'' width and/or height beyond 600/800px, whether by tables or by images. --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">█ </span>]]</span>''' 23:53, 25 May 2012 (BST)
:Neither of the items you cited are rules. The words "as a rough guideline" and "should" mean it's a guideline indicating best practice, not a rule. Most of the things up there are rules, but you picked out the two that weren't. So long as you make a good faith effort to not abuse the guidelines in an unscrupulous way (e.g. posting an obscenely tall ad), there isn't a problem. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:05, 26 May 2012 (BST)
::It's arguable both ways. One can say they're guidelines, another can claim rules. I think we need to be more clear on this guideline-rules thing. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 00:12, 26 May 2012 (BST)
:::What can be clearer than it saying "as a rough guideline"? And it's accepted everywhere that when something says "should" is isn't hard-and-fast. It's already clear. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:28, 26 May 2012 (BST)
 
Yeha like aichon said, it's generally the case here that if it's a "should" rather than a "must" it's not a ''rule''. Not that I'd be against changing it into one personally? {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 13:00, 26 May 2012 (BST)
 
Since we've decided that words have actual meanings rather than bullshit wiki interpretation can we fix the historical voting.  "Within two weeks of a nomination, the group must be approved by 2/3 of the voters, ..."  Ya know, because despite the common opinion on the wiki, within doesn't mean exactly.  However, if we insist within means exactly, I see no reason we can't say if within=exactly then should=shall. --[[Image:Kirsty_Cotton_Header.png|60px|Open the Box|link=User:Kirsty_cotton]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|<span style="color: grey">Org XIII</span>]]</sub> <sup>[[User:Kirsty_cotton/alts|<span style="color: blue">Alts</span>]]</sup> 14:52, 26 May 2012 (BST)
:Ugh, don't even get me started on Historical voting. But that's a separate issue that would need to be addressed elsewhere. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 16:36, 26 May 2012 (BST)
:Whatcha mean exactly? Having trouble following the specific problem you have. You think it shouldn't be a voting system? {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 10:02, 27 May 2012 (BST)
 
:Actually OP is right. [[Recruitment/Archive3#Recruitment_Rules_Discussion_-_size_of_ads|It was never intended to be subjective or optional]]. The [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Recruitment/intro&diff=next&oldid=1478061 rule it replaced] was likewise, non-optional. Only the height limit is in any way [[Recruitment/Archive3#Advert_Limits_Revision|non-restrictive]]. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 12:24, 27 May 2012 (BST)
::Should is not a restrictive word, it makes a suggestion. As for the previous rule, it's just that, previous.  --[[Image:Kirsty_Cotton_Header.png|60px|Open the Box|link=User:Kirsty_cotton]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|<span style="color: grey">Org XIII</span>]]</sub> <sup>[[User:Kirsty_cotton/alts|<span style="color: blue">Alts</span>]]</sup> 14:31, 27 May 2012 (BST)
::What? yeah, all those examples indicate they are supposed to be rules... At what point did it get changed to ''should'' then? Deary me {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 15:08, 27 May 2012 (BST)
:::If the majority of the groups have been breaking the "rule" for years without complaint, that's a good indication it's a bad rule and should be replaced with the new ''de facto'' rule that has been in place. Rather than arguing what was or wasn't, let's just update what's written and call it a day. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:33, 27 May 2012 (BST)
::::What's the most common low resolution these days? 1024×768? Although I try to make sure my pages scale to every resolution (and make complaints about those that do not, as I tend to run my browser windowed), we should really be trying for the lowest/most common denominator. (Mobiles are a special case, but that's why MediaWiki has mobile skins.) {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 01:13, 28 May 2012 (BST)
 
::::It's a standard internet design policy Aichon, y'all are just too lazy to actually check for functionality around here while enforcing the ''actually'' worthless rules and the people creating the articles don't know enough to give a damn. Here's a visual representation of [[wikipedia:File:Vector_Video_Standards4.svg|various sizes along with the transmission types for them.]] 800x600(SVGA) is still the [[wikipedia:Computer_display_standard|low end standard]] and will be at least until [[wikipedia:Windows XP|Win XP]], and the Macintosh's go out. At which point it'll probably become 960x5/600 before going to 1024 because of things like the iPhone and Vita, etc that run that minimum aspect ratio. 1024 is the current generation set for Laptops and Netbooks, these standard exist to provide for last generational support.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 04:32, 28 May 2012 (BST)
:::::I know the standard. It's about why this is considered a guide and not a rule. It has little to do with the actual... "rule" at hand (assuming it should have been one the whole time). {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 05:38, 28 May 2012 (BST)
:::::You nailed me. I'm lazy. It's by chance that the barricade plans have color-blind friendly colors, the Click template gracefully degrades, and my group's recruitment ad was tweaked before your comment to be friendlier at lower resolutions. Everyone else thought I was putting in extra effort and cared about this stuff, but I sure fooled them. :P
:::::Now, if you're willing to entertain the idea that I might have some awareness of common knowledge (in my line of work, no less), could you kindly re-read my last comment again? I wasn't speaking out of ignorance, and your post doesn't seem to provide a response to the things I said. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 06:50, 28 May 2012 (BST)
::::::Actually I was mostly referring to the page maintainers who are spending time enforcing rules that don't actually matter to the usefulness of the page over rules like this one that ''does''. Also previously that this was actually a ''de facto'' rule. I glossed over that because I assumed that debate was settled with the previous links to that effect, only the height(600px) should be being subjectively enforced and, actually, there's an easier way to do that here through CSS since we could just tie the whole thing to a restricted width of 800 px(less if you include the wiki-margins). So, why don't we just do that and call it a day? --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 11:16, 28 May 2012 (BST)
:::::::No issue here. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 13:40, 28 May 2012 (BST)
::::::::I'm fine with slapping everything into an 800-ish pixel wide div, since I'd imagine, though I haven't checked, that most of the offending ads are likely designed with that in mind anyway. It's only when you add the navigation bar that they run into issues. That was certainly the case with the SoC's ad. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 21:53, 28 May 2012 (BST)
:::::::::I shrunk my browser window to probably a 600px width and only a few ads stretched it. The RRF, Reddit survivor, and the Fortress have their ad set at 800px. Malton Department of Defense has theirs locked in at 760px, Soldiers of Crossman at 705px and Annus Horribilus at 665px. All the other ads seemed to shrink perfectly fine. I would say with that in mind putting a div in is unneeded. Most ads look better on a larger window and as long as everything will compress down to 800px a div is redundant and just makes things look worse for those with larger resolutions. {{User:Mazu/sig}}  21:49, 31 May 2012 (BST)
::::::::::Maybe there's a way to put them in a div that grows and shrinks with the page, but which uses the overflow:hidden CSS property to hide any content that would have caused horizontal scrollbars? That way people with larger screens are happy, and people with smaller screens don't get scrollbars, though they do get cut off ads. Doing so would provide some motivation to the creators of those ads to make sure they worked at smaller sizes. Not sure if that's really any better than what we have now, however. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 21:59, 31 May 2012 (BST)
:::::::::::You mean something like, <nowiki><div style="width:(number)%; min-width:700px; overflow-x:hidden;"></nowiki>? I have that, or something close to it, used on my userpage where you can scroll down to see more templates. Although the width is fixed in that example. {{User:Mazu/sig}}  03:21, 1 June 2012 (BST)
::::::::::::There's not and all that would do is make it so that the page is never smaller than 700px. All the proposed secondary idea would functionally do is nothing since non-overflow limited width ends up taking the last assigned element as the value instead of inheriting a value. Max-width:800px + overflow-x:hidden is the only universal way to enforce this rule 100%, and even that won't count margins, borders, or padding in it's element(which is probably the issue with the ad's in question). --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 04:14, 1 June 2012 (BST)
:::::::::::::So, all we've effectively done is make everyone with better resolutions have a worse experience while doing nothing to fix the actual problem of people at 800x600 since they still have to scroll because of the nav bar. I'm as much to blame as everyone else, since I said I didn't have a problem with it. Now I'm reconsidering my stance. Mazu's idea has all of the benefits we were wanting: it discourages bad behavior by cutting off large ads, it allows users with better resolutions to enjoy the benefits thereof, and it allows us to lock in a min-width so that ads that abide by convention aren't harmed. It doesn't prevent scrollbars (neither does the current fixed-width solution as it's currently implemented), but it does ensure that there is no visible content whatsoever there that they might be missing. I think that's a good compromise all around from what we had before and what we have at the moment. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 07:59, 3 June 2012 (BST)
::::::::::::::Sorry but you're wrong. The edit you just undid did actually [http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_pos_overflow.asp prevented scroll bars] on anything over [http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_dim_max-width.asp 800px wide in that portion of the page]. Your edit now forces a [http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_dim_min-width.asp minimum page width] with no other effect than to have an x-overflow prevention that does nothing now. Basically you've made the problem ''worse'' not better. My version was both tested and verified before implementation on a lowered resolutions. As is no content should be over 800px in that portion of the page per rules so any scroll bars it didn't cause, due to cutting the overflow, shouldn't have been there in the first place. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 10:17, 3 June 2012 (BST)
:::::::::::::::Also width:100% isn't a useful style in any way. It's default functionality, adds literally nothing other than code. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 10:19, 3 June 2012 (BST)
::::::::::::::::You are correct on most points, but incorrect on one or two. Unless we come up with a better solution, however, this is all going to be about choosing compromises. The 800px fixed width didn't account for the vertical navigation bar and margins, so it still forced horizontal scrollbars and clipped content at 800x600 (621 doesn't account for vertical scrollbars, to be fair, so even it should be knocked down another 10-15px). Granted, we could have knocked it down, but at that point we're ruining the page for the 99.9% of our users with resolutions higher than 800x600. Mazu's solution forces horizontal scrollbars, but no clipped content, meaning that they need never use the scrollbars. The min-width ''does'' have a purpose: it prevents ads that abide by the guidelines from being clipped if the window becomes too small; only those ads that try to use more than the allotted width will find themselves being clipped. As for 100%, you're right. Brain fart on my part. Late night editing FTL. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 15:02, 3 June 2012 (BST)
:::::::::::::::::Min-Width under screen width on a div that's 80% screen width has no effect. Min-width is for use with small content divs with adjustable width, etc. It's literally worthless when it's less than Max-width here. Also Mazu's code and mine use the ''same'' code to clip except his doesn't actually do anything since it clips at 100% width and uses min-width to make a portion of the page that's always over 700px be always over 700px. Literally all that can does is ruin scalability on Mobile Platforms, which is why it's always bad design to use fixed min-widths. Also on most all modern and current browsers x-overflow:hidden clips the content ''before'' it could add scroll bars so if they're appearing your browser is not CSS2.0 compliant. You'll only run into scrollbars if you're re-sizing your window manually, not actually changing resolution. If issue is that the whole page including headers was tied to that 800px that's an easy fix without reversion overkill, just put it subheader in each recruitment alphabetical section. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 15:09, 4 June 2012 (BST)
::::::::::::::::::I don't quite follow where the 80% stuff came form, but min-width serves a purpose here. Shrink your browser below 800x600 and you'll see that it keeps the ads from getting cut off any further. I also just tweaked it to work properly at 800x600, since before I failed to account for vertical scrollbars and UI chrome. Anyway, your last comment and your edit note have me convinced that we're simply not on the same wavelength, whereas I'd like to be working together coherently. I'll follow up below in a new section. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 18:26, 4 June 2012 (BST)
:::::::::::::::::::Quick note: my issue was not that the headings were also at 800px wide. My issue was that we were effectively wasting space for users at higher resolutions, forcing them to scroll vertically unnecessarily. Also, yes, this is a reversal on one of my earlier stances. Anyway, follow up discussion below. I just wanted to clarify what my issue was. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 18:32, 4 June 2012 (BST)
::::::::::::::::::::Ok, I'm not seeing in what way this would effect vertical scrolling at all. It also shouldn't have an impact on adjusted browser size since that doesn't actually impact pixels used in a div, if you have a small browser window you have a horizontal scroll because the div space you have is less than 800px, probably due to the left hand margin on the wiki. The 20% is a rough estimate of the left hand margin size. It's probably fixed width actually. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 19:41, 7 June 2012 (BST)
:::::::::::::::::::::By using a fixed-width div, we were making the ads taller for people with higher resolutions (i.e. most of our users) while creating unused whitespace to the side(s) of the ads. That's what I meant about wasted space and extra vertical scrolling. As for everything else, could we follow up below? I think the two of us got hung up on details, and I'd like to get back to the big picture. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 20:26, 7 June 2012 (BST)
 
Anybody else experiencing the sidebar disappearing to the bottom of the page because of [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Category:Recruitment&diff=next&oldid=2005665 this edit]? --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 22:34, 2 June 2012 (BST)
:It means there's an unclosed div somewhere in the page. Probably in one of the templates. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 02:25, 3 June 2012 (BST)
::[[New_Roman_Republic/recruit]] had embedded unclosed tables. Should be fixed now. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 02:35, 3 June 2012 (BST)
:::Ack. Could we at least center it? Might not be as bad then.. {{User:Mazu/sig}}  03:19, 3 June 2012 (BST)
:::Center what now? --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 15:09, 4 June 2012 (BST)
::::He was talking about with your solution. It was left-aligned. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 18:26, 4 June 2012 (BST)
 
===Goals and Solutions Discussion===
I think we need to back up and get on the same page as far as what we're striving for, then figure out where to go from there. Here are the goals I'm currently hoping to achieve:
#Don't force horizontal scrollbars at 800x600 or greater resolutions
#Ensure that ads which follow the guidelines do not get clipped at any resolution (e.g. 640x480, other mobile resolutions, etc.)
#Allow ads to use the full width when the resolution is over 800x600
I see #1 as a requirement and #2 and #3 as being good things to have (#3 in particular, since it applies to the vast majority of our users). Do we all agree on these points? If not, how should these points be expanded, reduced, reworded, or rethought? Near as I can tell, the current implementation (min-width:598px; overflow:hidden) seems to fulfill all three, which leads me to think that I'm not on the same page with everyone else regarding what we want out of this. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 18:26, 4 June 2012 (BST)
:Just make it so any Ad with a fixed width either by property or image is under a certain width so it wont force horizontal scroll bars on the 800x600 resolution. My understanding is that the 800px width includes all screen elements, nav bar, scroll bars, etc. Have this accounted for, as it seems Aichon has done. In that fashion higher resolutions don't see any negative aesthetics but lower resolutions are accommodated. Lastly revise the <small>directives, orders, acts, laws, statutes, edicts, canons, mandates, commands, dictate, decrees, fiats, injunctions, commandments, stipulations, requirements, guidelines, directions, ordinances, et. al any other synonyms I missed...</small> accordingly.
 
:<b>Clarification/TL:DR-</b> I'm suggesting a plain and simple rule change saying your Ad can not have a fixed width, by image or property, that is above (600?) pixels.  {{User:Mazu/sig}}  02:50, 6 June 2012 (BST)
::I'm pretty sure the only reason the rule exists in the first place is so that people don't use giant page consuming images in their ads. I doubt seriously screen resolution has anything to do with it at all. It was just a bad attempt to make the guideline make sense to the layman. Oh and you're all mentally retarded. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>03:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)</sub>
:::How is throwing down a screen resolution more in layman's terms than giving a simple width value? {{User:Mazu/sig}}  01:56, 7 June 2012 (BST)
::::Operative words: bad attempt. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>02:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)</sub>
:::The previously linked conversations show you're wrong. Oh so wrong. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 19:41, 7 June 2012 (BST)
:What if, rather than mixing rules and suggestions, we break it into rules that must be followed and a different section which gives guidelines/suggestions.  And if the main goal or side goal or whatever is stopping massive ads, really there should be a maximum ad height rule. --[[Image:Kirsty_Cotton_Header.png|60px|Open the Box|link=User:Kirsty_cotton]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|<span style="color: grey">Org XIII</span>]]</sub> <sup>[[User:Kirsty_cotton/alts|<span style="color: blue">Alts</span>]]</sup> 22:49, 6 June 2012 (BST)
 
==Spicer Hills Rangers==
I got no idea what they've done but they have two listings and neither looks like it's done right.  Can someone fix that?  I got no clue how the recruitment page works. --[[Image:Kirsty_Cotton_Header.png|60px|Open the Box|link=User:Kirsty_cotton]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|<span style="color: grey">Org XIII</span>]]</sub> <sup>[[User:Kirsty_cotton/alts|<span style="color: blue">Alts</span>]]</sup> 23:00, 11 October 2012 (BST)
:Done a quick bodge job. Should look better at least. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  23:10, 11 October 2012 (BST)
 
==scroll bar==
Might just be me, but I get an internal scroll bar for just the group listings (the scroll bar stops before the text listing of groups, it's just for the adverts.  I'm using (probably) the latest firefox.  Should that be there? --<sub>[[User:Kirsty_cotton|<span style="color: lightgrey">K</span>]]</sub> 21:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
:Appears to be something specific to you. I'm not seeing it in a (relatively) clean copy of the latest version of Firefox, nor am I seeing it in Chrome. See if disabling add-ons/userscripts affects it? I'd be interested if you can figure out what's causing it, since I've not heard of something like that. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 
==Question==
 
Could we move the formatting instructions to the end of the page, so the groups appear closer to the top? I do notice <nowiki>{{:Recruitment/intro}}</nowiki> includes both the top section (which should stay, about this being where to post ads) and maybe add a line that the formatting help can be found at the bottom of the page. --<sub>[[User:Kirsty_cotton|<span style="color: lightgrey">K</span>]]</sub> 19:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
:Sure, makes sense, [[Recruitment/intro]] is open to editing and a new transcluded formatting section can be put at the bottom of the page. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
::I probably should have waited for more consensus, but eh.  Anyways, I left the original recruit intro alone, so undoing the revision will put everything back. --<sub>[[User:Kirsty_cotton|<span style="color: lightgrey">K</span>]]</sub> 17:12, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Just wanna say I endorse this move. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 21:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 
==Help with a advert for the Malton Anarchists Union==
 
'''PLEASE!!!''' I need help making the Malton Anarchists Union advert. Could you actually help me build it, or at least give me pointers? Thanks!--[[User:Anarchist115|Anarchist115]] ([[User talk:Anarchist115|talk]]) 07:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
:Replied on your talk page. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 13:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)






=Category:Recruitment Rules Voting=
=Category:Recruitment Rules Voting=
==Vote on Changing Timestamping==
==Timestamps MkII==
Very simple and straightforward, this is the first vote on part of the discussion regarding the complete revamp. <br /><br />Change Timestamping to once every 60 days instead of once every 14.<br /><br />Seems this is the least contentious bit so here it is in vote first.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 05:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Groups who show on the [http://www.urbandead.com/stats.html game statistics page] are to be exempted from having to update the timestamp on their advertisements. They simply link to the stats page on the recruitment page (not inside their own recruitment template), with a timestamp (to indicate how long ago they were confirmed as being active), and as long as they show on the page (by having 10+ members) their ad remains valid regardless of the timestamp's age. This will allows the recruitment page maintainers to independently verify, at any time, that they are still active (and to update the timestamp themselves whenever they do it so others don't have to check for a period). Timestamped ads (as currently used) would still remain valid.<br />I'll open this for voting if no issues are raised <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 11:22, 13 February 2012 (BST)</small>
===Voting===
:I support this for the reason of it's common sense and makes page maintenance easier. Let's see if it's swung back to where it was a few years ago as far as the view of making Recruitment work for the users AND the maintainers. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 16:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - However, i would prefer a 30 day period for the time stamp, allowing groups to "upgrade" to a 60 day period ONLY after they have proven they can keep within the 30 day period for the first year. Can we not recast this vote with both a 30 day '''AND''' a 60 day period as available options? --[[User:T13|T13]] 20:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::Sounds good enough to me. --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">█ </span>]]</span>''' 18:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yea''' - Sure, why not. Betterment by steps is still a step better. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 05:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 
*'''Yep''' - I would rather one month, but two doesn't make much of a difference. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 10:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
===Voting ([[#Timestamps|Timestamps MkII]])===
*'''Yea''' Fine. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 11:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''For''' - It means less work for both groups and for maintenance, without allowing defunct recruitment adds to remain <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 08:41, 14 February 2012 (BST)</small>
*'''Yea''' - Much better than 2 weeks. Especially for smaller groups who aren't as active on the wiki. -- {{User:Krazy_Monkey/sig}} 14:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''For''' Common sense over procedure! --[[User:Rosslessness|Ross<sup>less</sup>ness]] 09:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Fuck yeah''' --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 14:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''For''' don't know what i'm voting '''for''', but i doubt if anyone pays attention to timestamps {{User:Son of Sin/sig}} <small>11:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)</small>
*'''Yea''' - Huzzah! Less work for group admins! --{{User:Pedentic/Sig}} 17:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''Against''' If you want a recruitment ad spend the 1 minute to update the timestamp. --[[User:Kirsty_cotton|Bad Attitude Kirsty]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|K.C. R&D d.b.a. Org XIII]]</sub> 15:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yes''', but as Link I would rather have had one month. - [[User:Whitehouse]] 20:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''Against''' takes 1 min, stats page inaccurate when showing actual group activity, etc etc {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig}} 18:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yea''' - Make it a lot easier! :]--[[User:Gamerman191|Gamerman191]] 02:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''Against''' - DDR has a point, actually. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 19:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - Great if your on holidays and most of your group doesn't always come on. --[[User:Surfraptor|Surfraptor] 2:26 p.m EST, 5 January 2009.
#<s>'''For''' --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">█ </span>]]</span>''' 19:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)</s>
*'''Yes''' - What's this? Less work for me you say? I wholeheartedly concur. --[[User:Mobius187|Mobius]] 18:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
#:'''Against''' - Aichon's arguments have swayed me. It would increase workload on the janitors for little benefit. --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">█ </span>]]</span>''' 18:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yea''' - Longer than 14 days is certainly an improvement, but I feel that 60 days might actually be too long.  Still... it's better than 14. --[[User:Maverick Farrant|Maverick]] 06:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''Against''' Per above. There's also something backwards about the big groups with plenty of active people no longer having to do the pitiful task that is maintaining a timestamp, while small and new groups, who are in much more dire need to recruit, do. -- [[Image:Cat Pic.png|14px]] [[User:MisterGame|<span style= "color: maroon; background-color: white">'''Thadeous Oakley''']]</span> [[User_Talk:MisterGame|<span style= "color: black; background-color: white">'''''Talk''''']]</span> 20:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yea''' - I would have preferred 30 days, but this is better than 14! --[[User:Lois Millard|Lois Millard]] 18:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''For''' -- This is a stupid rule historically used primarily by people who want to power trip on big groups. The accuracy argument is an excuse, and an inaccurate one at that. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 20:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Meh''' - To this specific version. I'd prefer it was one month. Even if it is this long, I'd prefer it be two ''months'', not 60 ''days''. It's simpler both to maintainers and advertisers. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 08:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
#:I would counter that at the moment the Malton Police Department is on the stat page but not Red Rum. --[[User:Kirsty_cotton|Bad Attitude Kirsty]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|K.C. R&D d.b.a. Org XIII]]</sub> 21:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - It gets annoying sometimes. --{{User:Haliman111/sig}} 00:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
#::So the MPD has active members and RedRum has a very small member base. That doesn't change anything, especially not any arguments about accuracy. It doesn't even stop you from removing the recruitment advertisements of stated dead groups. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 00:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Sure''' - i like the idea of it being longer, altho for maintenance purposes id say two months is a better length of time to use, less hassle. --[[User:Bullgod|Bullgod]] 09:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
#:::Red Rum is historically known for, shall we say, ''creative'' tagging. {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 14:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
**I don't think I understand the difference here. Two months would be a variable time isn't 60 days easier to reason out?--<span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User:Karek|Judge Karke]], self-proclaimed Decider of Everything and Ruler of All</span> 12:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''Question''' : What about prolonging the time required before the timestamp needs updating? --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 21:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
***Neither do I, actually. On another note, when will this vote end? Two weeks like everything else? {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 12:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
#:That would just make the recruitment page even worse. The reason for the timestamp is so that all those groups that get created, and then die within weeks don't clutter up the page. The whole timestamp thing is there to get rid of short lived groups so that newbies arn't trying to contact someone who has left the game already. That's why the current system, and this one as well, favours large groups. They are more stable, and reliable, and therefore a better bet when someone is actively looking for a group to join <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 07:28, 15 February 2012 (BST)</small>
****Sounds reasonable enough. I just intended to let it come to a natural end when it did, most things do after two weeks.--<span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User:Karek|Judge Karke]], self-proclaimed Decider of Everything and Ruler of All</span> 12:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
#::I'm not sure if there are very many short-lived groups being added to the page frequently. Most of the edits seem to be updating timestamps or re-adding recruitments. Checking the recent history will show this, and I skimmed it mostly, so I think we can disregard that point now as it's no longer relevant (and the real reason for timestamps is not shunting the little temporary groups, but rather primarily to make sure recruitments are for active groups, which can be of any size). The groups that benefit are those that are active on the wiki, which isn't precisely the same as those that are active in-game, and those who are active in-game don't always comply with stat page group member numbers for whatever reason. I suppose the point to all this is reducing the workload, which is why I offered increasing the time before a timestamp ought to be updated, making the need less frequent, although what I said fails to fix a problem that doesn't matter anyways. This game is becoming less frequented, little here is of much consequence except perhaps encouraging more platers, this recruitment page updating thing is more of a minor annoyance; and I'm going with Thad because, with what is proposed, it is discriminatory against groups for being not on the stats page, although "discriminatory" is too heavy a word here. '''Against'''. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 00:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
*****What's two months from now? (Jan 10th + 2 months) = March 10th. What's 60 days from now? 10 + 60 - 31 - 28 = March 11th. At least for me the first case is simpler to calculate. It's so simple that even calling it "calculation" is a little excessive. Sure, when using "two months" the duration can be a couple of days longer or shorter depending on what month you put the ad there, but two days out of ~60 doesn't really make a difference. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 12:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
#:::The reason this isn't that is the same people now claiming it's an inconvenience for small groups were previously claiming it's "very little work" down below even though it was a massive inconvenience at the time and they'd just used it to harass a group right before that vote. This is more or less a status quo is good and I've never been put out by this vote for a number of these same people. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 13:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
******Exactly my point. two months make for more practical maintenance than figuring out when 60 days exactly is from the posted time in each individual case.--[[User:Bullgod|Bullgod]] 06:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
#'''Against''' - This idea creates more work and spreads it among less people by replacing one type of timestamp with another, shifting the responsibility of updating the timestamps from the people reaping the rewards to a few janitors, and forcing the janitors to individually verify about 2/3 (currently 19/29) of the groups by hand (i.e. extra work that no one currently has to do). It also favors the larger groups, as Thad said, and gives the timestamps inconsistent meanings (some get deleted outright while others need to be checked first, then deleted or updated), leading to mistakes. I'd support something that reduced the net workload, but this isn't it. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
*******[http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html This] is what I've been using. It's not that hard ;). {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 06:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
#:In what possible way? This idea means that ''anyone'' can confirm activity for these groups and mark that they're on the stats page w/ timestamp for last check. The suggestion that it's more work to click the stats page when it's flagged than to click edit and DELETE automatically is fictitious, the assumption that this would cause more work to do one link click than having to repeatedly re-delete these groups(as current) is also kinda bull. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 00:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)  
********Know what else isn't hard? Agreeing with the two months idea. ;) --[[User:Bullgod|Bullgod]] 08:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
#::Even though anyone ''could'' confirm it, we both know that only two or three people actually will. Also, you ''should'' be editing the ad regardless, either to update the timestamp or delete the ad, so having to verify their activity is indeed extra work. As for re-deletes being more work, only three groups on the stats page in the last two months have been deleted then re-added. In contrast, you'd have to verify activity and edit the ad for 19 groups every two months with this new suggestion. Also, see below for why I don't think re-deletes would be going away. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 17:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
*********Oh for frell sake, link. If I stamp it on the 15th of February, it's expired on the 16th of April. It's simple. Oh gee you lose a day or two here or there!!! Who the frell cares, it's not like people need to get deleted the SECOND their timestamp expires. If it goes over (or under!) by a couple of days, ZOMG teh wikiz not gannah fall on youz, sheesh, stop making it so needlessly complicated. --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 18:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
#:::No, you wouldn't. You cut off half of the work just by doing this. Yes, I know MOB, DEM, the RRF, and FU are around, I know they will never not be recruiting. I just saved those maintainers some time and the server some process by not requiring they needlessly do a small edit every two months so show us they are still around(something we ''already'' know and can check with easily). I just stopped you from having to re-delete them, as all of those groups have had happen for no good justifiable reason other than some false fairness of "if I have to prove I exist you have to prove it twice". Three ''less'' edits, ''less'' hoops for people maintaining advertisements, don't encourage bad maintenance by claiming that they should be doing less work than verifying the groups existence, it's a shitty excuse. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 20:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
**********Understand, that I'm not agreeing with you, but I'm not disagreeing. I just don't really see the point in having to revise the thing we are voting on at such a late stage. If we are having problems then just put it up for another vote in a few months time. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 02:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
#::::This suggestion keeps timestamps on all of the groups. I'm trying to reconcile that with what you just said, which, from what I gather, is that we shouldn't bother updating timestamps for well known groups or using them to decide when to delete their ads. It makes sense on the surface, but if we did that those timestamps would be vestigial text with no purpose. Admittedly, it'd mean less overall edits (but still more for janitors), but I can't imagine you proposing that we put text that we have no intention of using on a page. Help a guy out? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
***********I'm fairly certain that this is so small a change that most would feel it's not worth changing '''once implemented''', which is why it needs to be discussed now, before it's implemented. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 07:58, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
#:::::Personally I think that's where it's at anyway with good maintenance practice(sometimes a rarity in this part of the wiki). However, the time stamp isn't useless, it's just something that serve a useless purpose, which is that it tries to gauge if a group is active and has an interest in recruiting, which all of these groups already do and show through game standard methods. We're needlessly doubling their work with something 90% of the people ignore anyway and for a page that already doesn't show dividends. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 13:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Aye''' - Sounds fine to me. --[[User:Macampos|Private Mark]] 21:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
#::::::Fair enough. It's obvious we're going to disagree on this suggestion, though I do like that you guys made an effort to do something about this problem (and I definitely agree that it ''is'' a problem). Also, I think this page is still valuable. At least with the [[SoC]], probably half of our recruits who mention where they first heard about us cite the wiki. And as I said, I'm in support of decreasing the necessary work involved, but all of the ideas behind this suggestion have tradeoffs I don't like. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 17:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - Yes, please. --[[User:D4rk N00b|D4rkness]] 04:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
#:Have you considered that anyone who regularly patrols the recruitment page would know that they don't have to check quite a few of the groups, because they would know they are still active, and have 10+ members without even looking <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 07:28, 15 February 2012 (BST)</small>
*'''Yes''' - Definitely. --[[User:Cheveyo|Cheveyo]] 07:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
#::I had not, but that practice encourages the sort of problem Zach just described. If the timestamps aren't being reliably updated, the groups hovering around 10 members (roughly a third of the 19) will be subject to being removed immediately if they just happen to have a day when they dip below 10 members. It definitely would be less work if it were done that way, but I feel the tradeoffs are not worth it. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 17:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - That would make it a lot easier for me, 14 days is too short. Im sure a group will be plenty active within 14 days of putting up a recruitment ad. Now in 2 months or 60 days, either works, they may not so that is a good time to check the ad, make sure everything is up to date. Also, 60 is not that long at all, even if a group went inactive after 30 its not that big of deal to have up. Most people who are not serious about keeping their groups dont even use this anyways. --[[User:Lady Cheetara|Lady Cheetara]] 07:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
#:::Groups that hover around 10 members would be much better off using a normal timestamp (as everyone uses now), and there is nothing stopping them from continuing to do so <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 19:39, 15 February 2012 (BST)</small>
#::::Also it'd have to be a week-month at below 10 members so that's a nonstarter anyway. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 20:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
#:::::It doesn't matter ''when'' a group gets delisted. It matters ''that'' they got delisted. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
#::::::It does because your claiming it's something that happens left and right, it's not. It's something that takes a ''very'' long time to do and there are numerous opportunities to avoid that fate. It's very easy to just get one more person to set their tag for a day.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 13:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
#:::::::I never claimed that. And five days, which I believe is the lag with the stats page reporting inactivity, is not "a ''very'' long time". Finally, the point is that it's something they may be unaware of that nips them in the bud when they're not checking for a few days, but which is easy to avoid, as you point out. That's a trap. As boxy said, better that they just stick to the old style timestamps. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 17:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
#::::I definitely agree that it makes sense for them. But that feels odd to me, since it'd be a system that introduces additional risk to groups that fall into that trap. It would also reduce the benefit of this suggestion to only about a dozen groups. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
#:::::What's wrong with that? Those dozen groups are the only ones who have had to keep updating their timestamps year after year after year. But, whatever. The majority have made it clear that they're going to have to keep updating those timestamps until the game dies... and so it shall be <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 07:39, 16 February 2012 (BST)</small>
#::::::It still favors the big groups, and reducing it to a dozen just emphasizes that fact. And I ''long'' for an alternative solution now that I've stepped out of wiki life and have a different perspective. I just don't think this is the right one. Abolishing the timestamps to make it like [[Template:Community_Projects|Community Projects]], increasing the time limit, or allowing longtime advertisers to update less frequently are all ideas I find interesting to ''consider'', but someone would need to actually think through them to figure out what the issues are and whether or not they're workable. Some of those have very obvious issues, but I'd be curious if there are solutions to them. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 17:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
#:::::::Go at it <small>-- [[User:Boxy|boxy]] 07:49, 17 February 2012 (BST)</small>
#'''Against''' it's really not that much work. --{{User:Sexualharrison/sig}}<small>22:26, 14 February 2012 (bst)</small>
#'''Against''' Use one set of rules for everyone and don't punish those not yet or no longer on stats. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>00:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)</sub>
#'''Against''' - Simply because I could see problems arising when groups are still active, but slip off the stats page and don't bother checking.--~ [[Image:MDD_Logo.png|20px|link=MDD]]''' [[User:Zach016|Zach016]]''' <sup>[[Department of Health and Human Services|D.H.H.S.]]</sup> 01:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''Against''' - Thadeous Oakley makes a valid point about the fact that small groups are more affected than larger groups with more people. However, I think the real problem here is that it takes very little effort for the groups, while increasing the necessary effort for the maintenance workers.--[[User:Shortround|Shortround]] 13:41, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''For''' - [[User:Hibernaculum|Hibernaculum]] 21:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''For''' - As boxy and Ross.  {{User:BillyClubThorton/signature}} 02:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''Against''' -- So, for some groups, you are trading in a timestamp for a different timestamp?  [[User:Asheets|Asheets]] 19:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''Against''' -- As V4por. I think this is unfair toward smaller groups.  [[User:Jesussante|Jesus Sante]] <sup>[[CFT]]</sup> 03:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''For''' - clean and simple. why not --{{User:Lady Clitoria/Sig}} 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''For''' - [[MHS|<span style="color: Black">'''MHS'''</span>]][[User_Talk:MHSstaff|<span style="color: DarkBlue">'''staff'''</span>]] 03:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
#'''For''' - A reduction in wanky, self-important bureaucracy on the UD Wiki? About time. --[[User:The Hierophant|Papa Moloch]] 14:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 
==Timestamps==
Lets just remove timestamps for group advertisements. It's better to have maintainers actively contact groups to check on their advertisements anyhow since that's what they should already be doing. Seems best to get rid of the single most needlessly frustrating and generally useless requirement for using this page.
 
===Voting([[#Timestamps|Timestamps]])===
#'''Author Vote''' -- This really doesn't need much discussion, either it'll pass or it won't. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 15:24, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - many groups are barely to completely inactive on the wiki, and so are not easy to get in touch with. Time-stamps are the easiest and most manageable way to check on activity and to keep the page from getting cluttered. We could talk about using longer durations to reduce hassle for less active groups, but the principle should be kept. --<small>Oh, and vote on [[UDWiki:Projects/Very_Funny...or_Not|Project Funny]], by the way.</small> --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">█ </span>]]</span>''' 15:42, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#:'''Comment''' - This change allows quicker response times to vanishing groups. If the concern is groups going inactive requiring a set time frame before following up is actually at the expense of the page's usefulness. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 15:53, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - As Spiderzed. Many groups aren't active on the wiki and only come on to update their timestamps, and some who are on the wiki never check their group talk pages.--[[User:Yonnua Koponen|<span style="color: DarkOrange">Yonnua Koponen</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Yonnua Koponen| <span style="color:Gold">T</span>]][[DvB| <span style="color: Goldenrod">G</span>]]</sup><sup><span class="stealthexternallink">[http://www.urbandead.com/profile.cgi?id=840689 <span style="color: DarkGoldenrod"> P</span>] </span></sup> [[User:Yonnua Koponen/Sandbox|<span style="color: Red">^</span>]][[Discosaurs|<span style="color: Red">^</span>]][[{{TALKPAGENAME}}#Donkey|<span style="color: Red">^</span>]] 16:09, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' as spidey and yon --&nbsp;[[Image:Boobs.sh.siggie.gif|link=User:Sexualharrison| HEY! HANDS OFF MAH BOOBS! | 16px]] &nbsp; <small> [[User talk:Sexualharrison|<span style="color:Red">bitch</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</small><small>16:37, 13 May 2011 (utc)</small>
#Means no trawling the page for the timestamps that are about to run out. Asking the groups all at once if they are recruiting means the process becomes a bimonthly task, not a constant one. - [[User:Whitehouse]] 16:56, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#I actually don't see too many problems with removing timestamps that can't be worked around. As long as shiny templates are involved, I can get behind it. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>17:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)</sub>
#'''Against'''-[[MHS|<span style="color: Black">'''MHS'''</span>]][[User_Talk:MHSstaff|<span style="color: DarkBlue">'''staff'''</span>]] 17:59, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#:<small>'''Note''' - The above was an against that had no comment because someone altered the vote format. </small>--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 19:17, 14 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - Keep the bastarding things. Reduce the overall wait time to remove ads, though. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 19:26, 13 May 2011 (BST)
#:'''Comment''' - The wait time isn't going to change. [[Recruitment/Archive3#Overhauling_The_Page_Rules|Here's why]] .and the [[Recruitment/Archive3#Vote_on_Changing_Timestamping|unanimous vote]]. The purpose of the timestamp has always been to have an activity check to make sure the groups still exist. There are easier ways to do that namely, [www.urbandead.com/stats.html Stats.html] or [[UDWiki:Namespaces#Talk_namespaces|Talk Pages]]. This is the approach taken for things like the [[The Great Suburb Group Massacre|GSGM]] and it has proven more reliable and less hostile than timed check-ins on many occasions. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 04:21, 14 May 2011 (BST)
#'''♪Do it now,''' ''because you can and I think you should. ♫'' {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 04:51, 14 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - As Mis. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 02:37, 14 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - no need to fix something not broken... it's not hard to remember to update the timestamp --{{User:surfincow/Sig}} 06:34, 14 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - Not a good reason to remove timestamps. --[[User:Macampos|Private Mark]] 23:44, 14 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - As Spiderzed.  [[User:Jesussante|Jesus Sante]] <sup>[[CFT]]</sup> 18:36, 16 May 2011 (BST)
#'''Against''' - As SurfinCow -- [[User:Asheets|Asheets]] 19:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 
==Amendment to Page Rules==
 
Given the relatively low traffic of the game overall now compared to its heyday, individuals now seem to spend a lot more time on maintenance and appearance on their groups' wiki sections, including recruitment ads. Couple this with the relatively high rate of groups crashing and burning quickly, and this page is often full of a mix of well-pruned ads for active groups, and dead ads for groups that haven't yet expired for a full two months, but inevitably will. I propose reducing the linger time from two months since the last timestamp down to one month from the last timestamp, before an ad is removed. This will have minimal effect on active groups, due to both their activity keeping the ad alive, and their ability to re-add it if it's removed, due to the fact that, well, they're still active. This will only have a genuine effect on housekeeping as it will allow for the pruning of ads sooner, rather than waiting for them to hit the two-month mark when it's clear they won't be updated. No other inclusion rules will be amended by this, simply the length of time a timestamp will keep an ad on the page for. Just a cursory vote should settle this, there's no need to go to A/PD for it.
:So, there's actually no policy or guideline regarding how long these things are up for vote, last I checked (though I may be incorrect). While I'd prefer one week, just to get it done faster, two weeks would probably be better, just to give as many people as possible a chance to chime in while also avoiding any allegations of trying to railroad the changes through. Thoughts? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:28, 27 July 2010 (BST)
::Give it one. Every group on the page has been notified already. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 00:29, 27 July 2010 (BST)
:::Give it two. Especially as you've directed them all to the wrong page, and this is the kind of thing that could be included simply on the main page. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 15:53, 27 July 2010 (BST)
::::I did? {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 15:55, 27 July 2010 (BST)
:::::Yip. Category, instead of category talk. You could of even linked this specific header. Ive added it to the news box. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 15:59, 27 July 2010 (BST)
::::::Oh I thought you meant I'd linked something completely different entirely. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 16:01, 27 July 2010 (BST)
 
After one week, the votes were at 11 For to 8 Against, and after two, the votes were at 14 For to 16 Against. The archives give no help regarding how long voting should last (though I'd say it's safe to assume we shouldn't let it go beyond two), and I can't find any definitive guidelines or rules for how voting on this page should work. Since the archives mostly show consensus polling and straw votes, however, and it's clear that this is a divisive issue lacking support across the board, I'd say it's probably best not to move forward with it, despite the fact that I would have preferred otherwise. Thoughts from those involved? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 20:50, 9 August 2010 (BST)
:{{Grr}} {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 20:55, 9 August 2010 (BST)
::Policy votes run for 2 weeks, right? Use the timescale for PD.--{{User:Yonnua Koponen/signature2‎}} 21:02, 9 August 2010 (BST)
:::That's ''effectively'' what I'm suggesting, except without the whole "changing the rules after the fact" aspect. If we had agreed on it beforehand, that'd be great, but since we didn't, choosing one or the other will inevitably be met with strife. Instead, I'm basically saying we shouldn't worry about whether it was one week or two, since it doesn't matter. What does matter is that there is no clear consensus, and in the lack of a clear consensus, the status quo should be maintained, based on the history of this page. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 21:19, 9 August 2010 (BST)
::::Rule of thumb is always two. Nothing on the wiki really runs longer or less. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 21:28, 12 August 2010 (BST)
:::::[[A/RE]]. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 22:15, 12 August 2010 (BST)
 
===For===
#That Misanthropy guy makes sense to me. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 03:54, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:I'd never known this to be a problem,... and had never really thought about it. Perhaps, instead, we could do away with the two month period, and timestamps altogethor,.... and do a once a month cleanup, like the Great Suburb Massacre,... just for ads instead. And I'd be willing to oversee that myself if people are interested, and once it's hashed out.... -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 04:01, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#::''Way'' too complicated, the timestamp method is nice and simple. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 04:03, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:::Wouldn't you have to check the space somewhat regularly to verify the timestamps, and remove the outdated ads? My suggetion requires this to be done not necessarily more than once a month. My suggestion seems to save time, not add to a burden... -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 04:06, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#::::Aich and I tend to check it regularly anyway. Your way would require contacting groups and waiting for replies, the current system is instantaneous. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 04:08, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:::::Yeah, Mis, myself, and sometimes a few others (Rooster sometimes, when he's around) keep it tidy on a regular basis. Adding extra overhead just creates more work. It's not so much a matter of doing the work of cleaning, as much as it is being allowed to clean them out regularly. Two months leaves us with a lot of groups that only lasted for two weeks at a time. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 04:18, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#::::::Well, one month is still two weeks to long isn't it? -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 04:24, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:::::::It's all about striking a balance between getting rid of inactive groups, and not having to constantly hassle groups about their status in-game. A month is ideal for this. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 13:04, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#As Misanthropy. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 03:57, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#I'm pretty sure I suggested a one-month period last time we did this. Still a good idea. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 06:44, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#As Link. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 09:08, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#As Misanthropy. That guy really do make sense. [[User:Technical Pacifist|Technical Pacifist]] 11:41, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#For it, provided all currently listed groups are notified on their talk page, as not everyone is going to catch the subtle difference in the small print. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 14:39, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:Out of about 40 groups currently advertising, only 11 would be affected if we enacted it right now. Looking at those 11, I can tell you right now that none of them have a great track record of maintaining their own ads. Five of the groups are veteran groups that regularly let their ads expire and then simply repost them sometime later, four of them are veteran groups that let them expire about as often as they remember to renew them, and two of the groups are brand new and have never renewed their ads. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:07, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#::If this is this is something this user is interested in seeing happen, I'd be willing to contact all the groups ''currently'' advertising. Otherwise, slap a notice on the front of the recruitment page, and be done with it? -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 00:14, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#:::I'd probably contact them myself when it comes up - it's 15 minutes of work to C&P some notice on ~40 group talk pages, and that's taking the time for the original write-up into account. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 00:22, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#::::At that, I'd be willing to make your job easier. A-M and N-Z. You take one set, I'll take the other. -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 00:30, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#:::::I'll take N-Z. That way I don't have to contact my own groups, which would be... bizzarre. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 00:42, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#::::::Mis is already on it,... never mind.... anyway,... if I had A-M,... I'd have to contact my group.... -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 00:46, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#:::::::Done. Figured it made more sense coming from the author. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 00:52, 25 July 2010 (BST)
# Sounds good to me, if groups don't like going onto the wiki often then that shows they don't really care about advertising their group.--{{User:Bonghit420/sig}} 00:55, 25 July 2010 (BST)
# It makes sense. --[[User:Austin hunt|<span style="color:green">Austin</span>]] [[User Talk:Austin hunt|<span style="color:blue">Hunt</span>]] 01:59, 25 July 2010 (BST)
# One month sounds good. I do believe that active groups should be able to have at least one single person visit the wiki twelve times a year. [[User:G F J|G F J]] 11:08, 25 July 2010 (BST)
# Sounds like a plan. --{{:User:Alexander Dawkins/Sig}} 17:56, 27 July 2010 (BST)
# I like 1 month.  I actually wouldn't mind 1 week either. [[User:Asheets|Asheets]] 20:18, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#I agree. --[[User:Colette Hart|Colette Hart]] 06:43, 1 August 2010 (BST)
# Agreed, it helps all parties involved.[[User:Delt]] 04:02, 3 August 2010 (BST)
#As Misanthropy. -- {{User:Goribus/Sig}} 08:52, 4 August 2010 (BST)
#Twelve times a year. Deal with it.--{{User:Rachel_Akebre/signature}} 08:29, 7 August 2010 (BST)
#Sounds like a good plan to me [[User:Symbiote spiderman14|Symbiote spiderman14]] 13:20, 7 August 2010 (BST)
#Also I would like to point out that it's not my fault that no one but me voted on that vote DDR linked! - [[User:Whitehouse]] 21:18, 8 August 2010 (BST)
# Makes sense to me -- [[User:Rooney|Rooney]] 16:35, 12 August 2010 (BST)
 
===Against===
#Hmm. I'm not big on recruitment page but I like 2 months cause it means less hassle for groups that don't like going on the wiki. Maybe change the rules to say that groups may have their recruitments removed without notice if they aren't on the stats page? --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 06:56, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:Wouldn't that mean that the groups most in need of recruiting are effectively not allowed to recruit? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 08:44, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#::Well, that's the reason why I said ''may'', hopefully if it happened it would be used with more tact than to just kill the recruitment if it's been a week since signing. Ah well. --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 08:52, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:::Also, lol @ [[Recruitment/Archive3#Revision|this]] vote! --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 08:58, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#::::It doesn't get much more definitive than that! {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 09:12, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:::::Is it possable to put these kind of votes on the wiki news template? -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 22:57, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#::::::I don't see a reason to, honestly, since any involved parties would have this page watched already, and this voting isn't governed by any policies. It's more or less just tradition. If we wanted to get technical, aside from the concern that people would get upset over it and try to start an A/VB case, there's really nothing to stop us from just changing the guidelines unilaterally and then acting on the new guidelines as such. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 23:53, 24 July 2010 (BST)
#:::::::I see. Like in the case DDR presented, it seems foolish to have it decided by one person. Whatever though... -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 00:32, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#::::::::The point of putting it on the community page is mainly to raise awareness. "There's a recruitment page?" Plus it encourages more people to get involved in the maintenance of the wiki. We don't want to have to rely on Boxy forever. (''On a side note, I only have 2 pages on my watchlist.'') --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 13:15, 28 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' The recruitment page is much smaller than it used to be, and now encompasses only one city. 2 months is fine. Plus I'm massively drunk. Thank god for spellcheckers.--{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 01:16, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' Well, as you asked. I understand why the wiki-maintainers would want to make this change, makes perfect sense from their side. But as a user of this page it's already a hassle having to remember to update the dates every two months, let alone one month. Of course, if other members of my groups weren't so fucking lazy I wouldn't be the only one doing the updating. Such a hassle to be updating things with deadlines, am so busy already, weed doesn't smoke itself you know! x --{{User:Lady Clitoria/Sig}} 02:18, 25 July 2010 (BST)
#:Goddamn it I love you Clitoria. Marry me. -- {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 16:01, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#::Clitoria Revolution? I'm sure I've seen that. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 16:15, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#:::Another downside, those of us who "watch" the rec-page will get twice as many fucking subscription emails. --{{User:Lady Clitoria/Sig}} 19:21, 2 August 2010 (BST)
#::::Not necessarily. A lot of the ads have their dates embedded in the ad itself, rather than on this page. See MOB, for instance. You won't get e-mails for them. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 21:06, 2 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Super Against''' - Both against the policy and against DDR's suggestion. As Ross.--{{User:Yonnua Koponen/signature‎}} 00:33, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' - Two months is fine, and I'm also the only member of my group that checks it, I'd go with without making a hassle even more annoying. --[[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]][[User:MisterGame|<span style= "color: maroon; background-color: white">'''''Thadeous Oakley''''']][[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]]</span> 16:34, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' - Makes a ridiculous amount of work for groupies. --{{User:TripleU/Sig}} 18:56, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#:Having to update a ''timestamp'' six more times ''a year'' is ridiculous? {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 23:21, 27 July 2010 (BST)
#::Having to remember to do it is more of a hassle than actually doing it. I hate doing it, even six times per year, yet alone 12. Just having to remember is a ridiculous amount of work! --{{User:Lady Clitoria/Sig}} 16:50, 31 July 2010 (BST)
#As DDR.  You don't see the [[C4NT]] updating every month, yet we're as active as can be, despite our numbers having dwindled... --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 07:36, 28 July 2010 (BST)
#:The point's not really about group activity, it's about actively maintaining a group's ad. When you come to this page looking for something to join, odds are you're going to be turned off on a group that hasn't fixed it in months, so it's not really going to hurt any group to update more often. Also C4NT aren't on the ad page anyway! {{Tongue}} {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 12:19, 28 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' - I can't speak for The Fortress here, but I don't often remember to check to make sure our Ad is still up. It's a bother to see that it's been down for a month just because we don't loiter around the wiki. Why not use the stats page to check group activity? Most groups that have been around a while are on there somewhere ... {{User:Prep/sig}} 21:18, 28 July 2010 (BST)
#:Yeah, if a group isn't on the stats page, it should have to update, but if it is, then you know they're active, even if not on the wiki. --{{User:TripleU/Sig}} 21:28, 28 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' - Basically the same thing as my mate above me; Just check the stats page to see if they're active or not. [[User:Paul Henderson|Paul Henderson]] 16:24, 31 July 2010 (BST)
#:but active groups with <10 wouldn't show up. --{{User:Lady Clitoria/Sig}} 16:47, 31 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' - The Fortress are very active, but I can still see this being a problem, to us and other groups.(in my own opinion)[[User:Puppiemaster| Puppiemaster]] 18:46, 31 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' -{{User:Poodle of doom/sig 2}} 22:28, 31 July 2010 (BST)
#'''Against'''--{{User:Jerrel Yokotory/signature}}. 21:54, 2 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' This is just going to be more hassle than it is worth for users. [[User:Sanpedro|Sanpedro]] 10:24, 3 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' Isn't going to help groups with lazy wiki reps, or smaller ones, or ones which rarely use the wiki. --[[User:Athur birling|Athur birling]] 12:16, 3 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' This just feels unnecessary. There's usually only one or two people in a fledgling group that bother to update their wiki page, and requiring them to remember this every single month is only going to frustrate them. --[[User:Shatari|Shatari]] 20:07, 5 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' - Not just fledgling groups. I've been the only one doing the RRF's, and it's been removed at least once recently. They're not really a small group.--{{User:Drawde/Sig}} 21:14, 5 August 2010 (BST)
#:It's a little embarrassing that 117 people can't type 48 characters over the course of a year. {{Grr}} {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 21:27, 5 August 2010 (BST)
#::Again, most people in a group don't have wiki accounts, either because they don't like or know how to edit a wiki, or because they're casual gamers. The chore typically falls on one or two people, and it's easy to forget something. I don't know about you, but 30 days can slip by pretty darn fast here on the farm. --[[User:Shatari|Shatari]] 22:53, 5 August 2010 (BST)
#:::Exactly. Back at the MoM thing, I got a few of my strike team to vote. Several didn't have wiki accounts at all. I'd be willing to bet that's commonplace as well - most of the RRF considers this place to be a drama filled bucket of dicks. Hence why it is so infrequently used by the majority of the group.--{{User:Drawde/Sig}} 22:23, 6 August 2010 (BST)
#::::Fun fact: Only 2% of game characters have a wiki account. Even accounting for multiple accoutns belonging to one player, that's tiny.--{{User:Yonnua Koponen/signature2‎}} 22:28, 6 August 2010 (BST)
#:::::All the same, it's essentially free advertising being handed out, refusal to use a site shouldn't really go hand in hand with gratis bonuses on said site. :/ {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 22:29, 6 August 2010 (BST)
#::::::And yet it does! Isn't it wonderful? When the whole game, and everything to it is free, you don't really get to complain when groups use the free advertising. Every mode of group advertisement in the game is "free". (Unless you count the ads on urban dead itself.)--{{User:Drawde/Sig}} 23:18, 6 August 2010 (BST)
#:::::::Yes, but if you spray an ad on a building, you need to remain vigilant to replace it when needed. When you go word of mouth you need to actively find people. When you post on a forum you need to remain active so the thread doesn't die and drop off the front pages. None of those things can be left for two months before they'll disappear (unless you tag a really quiet building, but in that case you're not going to get anyone seeing it anyway). {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 23:23, 6 August 2010 (BST)
#::::::::The difficulty of advertising in-game is a poor excuse to make it harder on the wiki. --{{User:TripleU/Sig}} 23:55, 6 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against''' Wiki management within a group is one of the more thankless tasks that can be assigned to a member.  Making them work harder at it isn't going to motivate them to do a better job. -[[User:Space Tyrant]] | [[Talk:Dunell_Hills_Police_Department|DHPD]] 08:02, 8 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against'''--{{User:Skoll/sig}} 03:42, 9 August 2010 (BST)
#'''Against'''. It's a tiny chore, but it's a chore. It's also easy to forget. Also, people who don't want to edit wikis shouldn't be made to edit wikis more, just so that people who like to maintain wikis don't have to maintain wikis so much. [[User:Billy Forks|Billy Forks]] 11:32, 10 August 2010 (BST)
#:Actually, it would mean more maintenance, since we'd likely be clearing more advertisements than we currently do. Despite that, the primary maintainers of the page (myself and Misanthropy) think it's a good idea. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 03:28, 11 August 2010 (BST)
 
=New method of Organization=
 
I posed the idea of reorganizing the recruitment page to be more useful while talking about adding in a link on the wiki side bar. So here it is. In hopefully the least drama filled form. Groups would be separated into general types. Pro-survivor, Pro-Zombie, PKer and Unique. The sections would be ordered in A-Z then the groups in each section would be ordered A-Z. Here's a short mark-up as an example:
 
 
-Player Killer Groups-
Cobra<br>
Philosophe Knights<br>
Red Rum<br>
 
-Pro-Survivor Groups-
The Abandoned<br>
DEM<br>
The Fortress<br>
 
-Pro-Zombie Groups-
Feral Undead<br>
Militant Order of Barhah<br>
RDD<br>
 
-Unique Groups(or miscellaneous groups)-
Discosaurs<br>
Organization XIII<br>
 
 
I think this would simplify the process for people finding a group they like. If they are pro-survivor looking for that type of group instead of wading through 20 other groups they can just jump right to the pro-survivor section. If this gets implemented I would place groups in their respective sections by what I can assume from the information they provide on their advert and group pages. Lastly to solve any placement issues(read: drama) people could just move their group to where they wanted it and BAM problem solved. Other than the way the adverts are organized nothing else about the page would change and life would go on as normal. Thoughts?{{User:Mazu/sig}}  22:14, 25 July 2011 (BST)
:Instead of that, and in order to help avoid any bias by ordering the types of groups that way, why don't we break the page up into multiple recruitment pages, then make this page a rather nice looking splash page that explains the types of groups and has prominent links to the sub-pages? Also, you may want to look over [[Template_talk:SuburbGroups#Nominations_for_Suburb_Group_Categories|this]] (it starts there and continues for the rest of the page and onto a few other linked pages), since you weren't around for it, and you should expect drama to erupt over your use of "Pro-Survivor", "Pro-Zombie", and "Unique" if you really try to push them forward. "Player-Killer" is just about the only type everyone can agree on a definition to, but then they start arguing about whether or not it should be lumped in with other types instead of having its own listing. The drama over something so trivial is really stupid. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:34, 25 July 2011 (BST)
::I'm 99% sure that all of this has already been voted down before, and for the record, I'm against it. This isn't a long or difficult page, and with each group stating its orientation plainly, simply searching for what you want is easy and quick. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 22:39, 25 July 2011 (BST)
:::Also, more stupid drama over stuff related to naming the different types can be found [[UDWiki_talk:Poll/Classifying_Suburb_Groups|here]] and [[UDWiki:Poll/Classifying_Suburb_Groups|here]]. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 22:44, 25 July 2011 (BST)
:Oh not this again. Leave as is. --{{User:DT/Signature}} 22:48, 25 July 2011 (BST)
::Wouldn't breaking the page up into several recruitment pages has the basic same effect as just using headers? or am I misunderstanding your idea? Anyways, I figured broad titles are a way to avoid drama because you can't deny GKer's and RKer's along with death-cultist are Pro-Zombie as they aren't benefiting anyone else. Same for bounty hunters and Life-Cultist being Pro-Survivor. I chose Unique instead of Misc because it fits with the A-Z order(so no possible bias there). If it turns into too much a drama-fest I'll just kill the whole idea, simple as that. And Misanthropy on the off chance this game comes back to life the page could get long and hard to find what your looking for and besides there's no reason to not make searching easier. I'm about to say piss on it because i've been edit conflicted a dozen times now  {{User:Mazu/sig}}  22:49, 25 July 2011 (BST)
 
Not to mention the instant negative response :P{{User:Mazu/sig}}  22:51, 25 July 2011 (BST)
 
There's only 40 groups advertising. Leave it on one page. --[[User:Rosslessness|Rosslessness]] 23:01, 25 July 2011 (BST)
:I wasn't planning on making additional pages.{{User:Mazu/sig}}  23:09, 25 July 2011 (BST)
::It was a general comment Maz, thats why I didn't indent. --[[User:Rosslessness|Rosslessness]] 23:41, 25 July 2011 (BST)
:::Honestly, I'm with Ross (and everyone else saying it's a bad idea). The reason I suggested it was as an alternative to grouping them on one page, which inherently puts some ahead of others and will create drama. By breaking it into multiple pages, it doesn't feel like survivors are ahead of zombies or vice versa, since they're in different places. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:00, 26 July 2011 (BST)
::::Yeah I see where you all are coming from. I'd hate to raise the wiki's drama level :P Maybe in the distant future people will get their heads out of their butts so common sense can win out. {{User:Mazu/sig}}  00:51, 26 July 2011 (BST)
 
==Reorganising the page==
I thought I'd open this discussion up again. There are only 4 survivor groups listed, 2 zombie groups and 2 all play styles. It seems fairer in a lesser-populated Malton to give each group a similar chance of recruitment by having them all listed by type. I would suggest having it set out as "survivor, zombie, all-play styles". I have read through the previous discussion on it all but that was 6 years ago, and since times have changed on both the wiki and in Malton, maybe it's time for a refresh on this page too. [[User:Stelar|stelar]] ([[User talk:Stelar|talk]]) 21:45, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:I'll endorse this. There are no current PKer groups, but I'd be satisfied with a Survivor-Zombie-PKer(/death-cultist)-Other order. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 21:58, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 
==Re-Reorganising the page==
I find the current playstyle order to be inadequate. Zombies should come first, then survivors, and then DCs & PKers should be in a single category together, and then finally the "all" groups. Zombies have a harder time recruiting in general and eternally have had the disadvantage in player ratio. Also, many players choose survivor by default, and only *maybe* play zombie on the side with an alt or two. I believe zombie groups should receive more attention to slightly boost zombie recruitment, in order to make the game more fun for both zombies and survivors in general. {{User:RadicalWhig/sig}}11:01, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
:The ordering has also come up in a different discussion on Discord, regarding where to place PKers, Bounty Hunters, DCs etc. I am a big believer that DC and PK groups should be separate (based on the desires of the members of those groups), and my guess was the ordering was from most useful to the average person searching for a group (who, like you said, is most likely to play Survivor). I didn't think of the alternative, that the ordering should be designed to be most useful ''to the game'', which would put Zombies first.
:In general my philosophy towards the wiki is that it should be defined by usefulness to users, since any influence on the game itself is user-driven (see: the lack of updates forthcoming from the Suggestions system). I'd love to hear others' thoughts on the best ordering for the Recruitment page with these possibly-conflicting goals in mind. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 16:38, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
::I genuinely think there is no reason to believe that putting zombies on the top of the page will actually help their recruitment. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 03:14, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
:::As DDR. Also, inasmuch as it’s able to avoid doing so, the wiki shouldn’t be engaging in activism to promote a particular side. I agree that zombies could use a boost, but this isn’t the way to accomplish it. The wiki is fundamentally a resource for the players and about the game, rather than for the game and by the players, so it should remain user-focused in how it provides its utility. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 08:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
::::Just for the record, if there were a chance it would make a difference, I wouldn't have a problem with it, I'm all for helping groups or demographics that require increased exposure. In 2009, it may have been different. But it took me under two minutes to read every survivor entry before getting to the zombie section. Of all the largest hurdles of being a functional zombie teammate, including requiring high-level coordination, communication, higher early-game difficulty, etc, a two minute delay in recruitment surely will not be the difference between a zombie recruit and a lost opportunity. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 12:52, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
:::::FWIW I can also vouch that at least one zombie group (the one I'm in) has been getting quite a few new members from our wiki recruitment ad. People seem to know what playstyle they're aiming for before reaching this page. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 13:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
::::::If you really care about the order, you could set up a schedule to mix up the order every now then. Although for the same reasons as Aichon and Bob I don't think it would have a great effect. --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">▋</span>]]</span>''' 20:10, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 
== Page breaking ==
 
Does anyone else notice that [[:Category:Recruitment#Malton_Danger_Updaters|Malton Danger Updaters]]' recruitment template is substantially wider than the others? it's the only one that goes off-screen when I scroll on my browser (note: not full screen). Is there really no guideline on advert size?
 
Also, something seems to be affecting the text size of the UDWiki sidebar and top tabs outside the normal editing area of the wiki. Only had a quick squiz, but couldn't find the culprit. Thoughts? {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 10:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
:I am not sure about your first point. It doesn't shrink like some of the other ads if I make my browser narrower, but when I have my browser maximised, the MDU ad is slightly less wide than The Scourge ad.
:As for the sidebar and top tabs, I went through the history of the recruitment page, and it seems something happened when the Rolt Heights Caliphate recruit ad was put in, but I'm not entirely sure what it was, as that ad on its own page doesn't cause the sidebar/top tabs to shrink. {{User:Stelar/sig}} 12:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
:::I fixed the RHC issue. They hadn’t closed a div. As for widths, yeah, MDU is getting chopped off for me on my iPad, rather than shrinking down to fit the available width. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 20:19, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
::::As a purely hypothetical scenario, what’s the standard with which we ''would'' put as a pixel limit on width? Im sure we’ve had a standard somewhere elsewhere before. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 21:41, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
:::::Purely hypothetically? How about the existing standard which apparently got removed from the page? It might be a good starting place. :P [[Recruitment/intro|These are the original formatting guidelines]], but [[Recruitment/format|these are what is at the bottom of the page right now]]. Looks like the latter two sections in the original guidelines, which address this topic, got dropped for some reason. I don’t recall whether that was intentional or not. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 01:04, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
::::::Well, this is a trip down memory lane. The second I sent that comment off for input on where we have discussed size standards in the past, I scrolled this page going ‘I swear to god we did this here’... and you found it. I could be wrong, but I recall the removal of it was deliberate, with, by my memory, myself specifically saying ‘I haven’t had any problems with an 800px standard on a monitor for over 5 years’ or something equally as shortsighted ;) Perhaps the solution was to update the width limits, not remove them. Doh me. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 03:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
:::::::[[#800x600|Here]] is the most recent discussion from 2012. There was no conclusion on whether the old 800x600 standard should be changed or abolished, so I think someone just went ahead and changed it. --'''<span style="font-family:monospace; background-color:#222222">[[User:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime"> Spiderzed</span>]][[User talk:Spiderzed|<span style="color:Lime">▋</span>]]</span>''' 10:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks for find that. Looks like I was recalling a completely different conversation. So, what are our thoughts on it? Should we throw in a token restriction? Or not worry? Also, my god Karek was an exhausting human being. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 00:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 
:I figured up what's up with the MDU ad. The red dashed lines are just dashes, and they don't linebreak, which prevents the width from shrinking below the length of the dashes. I reduced the number of dashes and the minimum width percentage, so it should look smaller on desktop & mobile now (I hope). If it's still too wide let me know.
:And thanks for fixing out the issue with the RHC ad! {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 12:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
::Thanks for fixing the probs Bob, Stelar and Aichon. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 08:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:52, 11 July 2018

Help Desk

  • Need help figuring out how to use / follow / get the most out of the new advert guidelines? Post here!
  • Previous discussions? Look in the archives(2 3)!
  • Try reading this guide for a quicker result!

Recruitment Ad

Hey, I've been trying to put my recruitment ad up, but DDR took it down because it wasn't in the guidelines. Its the same one we used for years, so what make it unusable now, as far as formatting go, so that I may condense or fix it so I my put it back up? Sorry. I just don't know what's wrong with it. I thought it followed all Recruit Ad guidelines. -- Jerrel tlk (82nd!) (Project Unwelcome!). 04:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Jerrel : you placed the whole code of your 82nd_Airborne_Division/recruit page onto the main recruitment page, instead of linking to it in the way that you're supposed to. Maybe check the code for the recruitment page here and you should be able to work it out (click on edit and see how other groups have added theirs.) It's also shown in the 'format for posting adverts' section at the top of the page, in the blue box. -- Xyu888 1 July 2015 07:28 (BST)
I have to link it? like a link to it wont post the whole recruitment advert though.-- Jerrel tlk (82nd!) (Project Unwelcome!). 00:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

question

how do i join a group do thay meet you i need help on the game am a newbie—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jose (talkcontribs) at an unknown time.

Basically, just contact the group via their wiki page and they should be happy to give you further instructions. Most of the time you'll travel to their location within the game if you're interested in joining the group, since most of the groups are local to a specific region or suburb of the game. For the nomadic groups, they'll give you information on where to meet them at the moment. In the meantime, you should be fine to survive in the game as a newbie for as long as you need to. I started off alone in the game with all of my characters for at least their first few weeks, and had no issues making due. Aichon 03:17, 10 April 2010 (BST)

Aesthetics

Looking over the big ol' block of text at the start of the category, I get the feeling that improperly-formatted ads crop up so often due to the imposing nature of so much rules text. I'll probably knock up a more user-friendly approach to the rules tonight, provided I'm not shouted down. Anyone else feel this page could do with a sprucing up? We're coming to get you, Barbara 14:10, 2 April 2010 (BST)

Yep, spruce the shit out of it. It's ugly. --    : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : 16:19, 2 April 2010 (BST)
Agreed. It's extremely imposing for newbies and throws them for a loop (or else puts them off entirely) quite often. If we can provide just a simple block of text to copy/paste here, some simple instructions for what to do on their template recruit page, and a few other guidelines for what is allowed in terms of height/width, etc., then we'll be good. Right now though, it's monstrous. Aichon 22:47, 2 April 2010 (BST)
While you're at it, move the contents list lower. Makes it more readable. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 22:49, 2 April 2010 (BST)
How does that look? I tried using the colour progression from my previous rehash of the SugHead template, though I think the bottom one is a little off. I might try it with all of the contents of the recruitment page as well, see how it stacks with the table of contents. We're coming to get you, Barbara 01:12, 3 April 2010 (BST)
The color progression is fine, but the text needs cleaning up (looks like you just copied what we had, which gives us a good starting place, but it still needs work). For instance, in the second box, all of the italicized stuff should go (you wouldn't believe how much it confuses newbies), and it really should be just a block of code that they can copy/paste and swap out a few keywords for. The third block of text needs cleaning up as well, in terms of what all it says. Right now, it's too wordy and too "wall o' text". If we could condense it down, that'd be nice. As for the fourth box, I really don't like the phrasing that some of it uses (e.g. "as a rough guideline"). Make it a concrete statement or else don't have it at all.
As far as the changes you made though, I like them. And in response to Ross, I'd keep the TOC where it is. Bumping it down would bump into some ads and would also detract from the point of the page by making the entire top part being about the rules of the place. I'm almost tempted to suggest we pull the guidelines out to a separate page where we provide full instructions. Aichon 05:09, 3 April 2010 (BST)
Condensed. We're coming to get you, Barbara 20:34, 3 April 2010 (BST)
You mind if I tweak a few things with it? I really like the way it's looking, but there are a few grammar/typo issues, as well as some other stuff I'd shift around a bit (e.g. the info about categories needs to mention <noinclude> and should probably be in its own code box as well; I have some ideas for how it could be done). Aichon 22:10, 3 April 2010 (BST)
Sure, work away. Don't you be stealing my European vowels though! Grr! Argh! *shaking fist* We're coming to get you, Barbara 22:12, 3 April 2010 (BST)
Actually, as I started working on it, I realized I had a lot of ideas for changes, some of which kinda contradict what I was saying earlier, in fact, so I'm setting it up in my own Sandbox and should have an example up in a bit. It's a bit longer than what you have, but gives them a step-by-step set of instructions broken down similarly to how you did it...kinda. Aichon 02:40, 4 April 2010 (BST)
Make it pretty. We're coming to get you, Barbara 02:42, 4 April 2010 (BST)
Here. It's not any prettier than yours, but I tried to give comprehensive instructions while making them approachable and clear. A few issues I saw people having before were confusing what code goes where and forgetting to put the categories on their recruit page. By providing a clear delineation between the instructions that apply to the recruit page and those that apply to the Recruitment page, I'm hoping we won't have as many mistakes of that sort. It's definitely longer than your idea, Mis, but I'm hoping it makes up for it by having instructions that are spelled out a bit more (especially when it comes to the categories). Thoughts? Parts that can be cut? Bad ideas? Aichon 05:49, 4 April 2010 (BST)
Few spelling mistakes is all, otherwise perfect. We're coming to get you, Barbara 05:54, 4 April 2010 (BST)
Feel free to correct my "mistakes" if you'd like. :P I didn't see any American English spelling mistakes, nor did my spell-checker alert me to any as I was typing it up, but if there are any, or if you just want to add the extra vowels you folks use, feel free to do so. I've got no problems with that. Before we go changing things, any other opinions from the peanut gallery? Aichon 06:41, 4 April 2010 (BST)
Yeah, Aichon, that looks good. - Goribus 04:12, 15 April 2010 (BST)

Magic Words for timestamps

I just now noticed that a few groups were using the {{CURRENTMONTH}}, {{CURRENTDAY}}, and {{CURRENTTIME}} magic words in their templates so that they could circumvent having to update their timestamp. The rules for the page say no included templates, but the magic words are not technically templates, yet they still are handled like an inclusion and require processing by the server. Plus, they clearly circumvent the spirit of the guidelines by allowing the ads to be posted ad infinitum, even if the groups go bust. I was thinking it might be prudent to contact the groups and ask that they update by hand instead. Thoughts? Aichon 09:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Wipe their ads, and tell them to re-add them without the magic words. As you tell them, they're templates in all but name, and are a pretty blatant circumvention of the guidelines. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Awwwwww. :( We're coming to get you, Barbara 22:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Pull 'em. --Papa Johnny 22:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Since all three of the groups are updated by wiki regulars, I'll be nice and get in contact with them and give 'em a week to change them, rather than deleting them outright with no notice. Misanthropy, consider this me contacting you. :P Aichon 03:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Consider it changed as of several hours ago. :P We're coming to get you, Barbara 03:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

You people suck. Moreover, this is in breach of no rules and I maintain that we have every right to use this method.

Format for Posting Adverts:
It is the group’s responsibility to update the timestamp to prevent the advert being deleted. Updating the timestamp may and should be done at any time while the group is still recruiting.

We're still recruiting and will be recruiting until such time as we or (more likely) the game are no longer around. I instituted this update method because I didn't want to have to make some bullshit form-stamping edit every so often for absolutely no useful reason. The timestamp is being updated, why should you care what method we use? Answer: You shouldn't.

Format for Advert Content:
No templates are allowed in your advert for technical reasons.

The "technical reasons" alluded to would be the template inclusion limit. The variables used are not expensive and are subject to no such limit, thus this does not apply. Nice try though. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾ 08:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

While perhaps not in the spirit of the rules, I see no harm in the use of the magic words as long as the group is still active. A messege on the group's talk page (similar to the current Recruitment page warnings) every 3 months I think wouldn't be too much hassle. --Maverick Talk - OBR Praise Knowledge! 404 08:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree Revenant, you lack a timestamp entirely. Displaying the current time and date in no way replicates the function of a timestamp, which is used to record specific dates. Further, if we're going to play "abuse the wording" I would argue you don't meet this part either: It is the group’s responsibility to update the timestamp... since it's automated and requires no edits by the group. -- User:The Rooster RoosterDragon User talk:The Rooster 17:16, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Bumping this topic for re-discussion, since two groups are still using it (looking at you again, Rev). My opinion hasn't changed. I think it breaks the spirit of the rules, and Rooster's point is very valid as well. Aichon 10:47, 12 August 2010 (BST)

Splitting up Recruitment

At the moment, Recruitment is so big it's unwieldy. It takes close to twenty seconds to load on my 1.5mbs broadband, and it would be unfair to assume that everyone has this internet. Also, with groups spread across different letters of the alphabet, it's difficult to find a group for a particular type of character.

I'm proposing that we turn this page into a disambig for three new pages:

Rules, etc, will remain on the main Category:Recruitment page. A reminder will be on all of it's subpages to check the rules.

This should make load times a bit more reasonable and make it easier for new players to find a group. Also, thanks to SA for providing the motivation to write this post :D. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I like this idea. But I'd propose that death cult-type groups go in both Zombie Groups and PKer Groups. We're coming to get you, Barbara 13:57, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Letting them double up is effectively extra/unfair advertising. We need to set up the disambig pages so that it's clear which one each group should fall under. Aichon 22:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
It used to be like this! I didn't like it when it was changed to the current mess and definitely support changing it back :D --Karloth Vois ¯\(°_o)/¯ 15:50, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Better. Do eet. Do eet naow. -- Rahrah doesn't remember the age of blinking text. 17:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
As Aichon. Most death-cultists seek out life on purpose so much they're pretty much the same as "ordinary" PKers anyway.--Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 18:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Vouch - :D --Haliman - Talk 17:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Going off what I was saying earlier, I'd just make it "Survivor", "Zombie", and "Other", and define the first two as groups who fight for and exist almost always as that side (e.g. traditional survivor and zombie groups, while death cultists are out, since they play as humans sometimes but fight for zombies). The third category would be for everyone else, such as PKers, death cultists, life cultists, dual nature, etc. I think that would fall in line with most people's expectations better, and it should deal with almost all of the fringe cases. Aichon 18:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
For On the condition that Aichon's idea is what happens.-- Adward  18:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Not actually a voting section, oh ze whoomanneeteee, get zis up for voting -- Adward  18:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Voting on mundane stuff like this is stupid. I've never seen the point for pages like this, Suggestions, etc. Consensus is a much better system.
That said, Aichon's idea is much better then mine. Linkthewindow  Talk  05:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
What he said. -- Rahrah doesn't remember the age of blinking text. 18:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

What about dual nature groups? Zombie groups that also pk when alive? Groups that claim to be survivors but PK (Like The Barrciade Enforcement Patrol?) We have 31 adverts. Thats not a huge amount. Why make the system more confusing for newbs? --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 20:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Groups that claim to be survivors but pk will be allowed to list themselves as survivor groups - we don't need the unnecessary drama. 31 ads is still a massive scroll bar, and I don't see how changing this will make it too more confusing. I'm assuming a noob knows that a "survivor group" is. Linkthewindow  Talk  05:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
  1. Keep <Is this how we should vote? I agree with the idea, as it will better organize the recruitment page. My reccomendation, add an Other page or separately add the PKer-zombie, Zker, and so on. An other page would be nice.--Supercohboy 15:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
  1. Keep Change PKer to Other. If you are a survivor or zombie it is obvious where to look and if you play a PKer/ZKer/Dual-Nature/whatever then you can take the time to look through Other as there are less of those kinds of groups.--Zakarus 20:50 16 February 2012
    Nice work coming 2 years too late to the party DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 08:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

hELP REINSTATING?

Hi,

Just wanted to put the DK13 advertisement baqck in place now that i have internet again :) Can someone please help me? Im sure last time i edited the page i got a slapped wrist, so if someone could put the advert i8n place for me, i can just keep it updated!

http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/DELTA_KILO_ONE_THREE/recruit

Thanks guys!!! --T13 01:53, 31 March 2010 (BST)

If you can add a signature to your recruit page, I'll go ahead and post it for you. Just edit the page you linked and add in your signature there. I'd prefer not to post an ad that doesn't have a signature at all, even if you have plans to fix it later. Aichon 04:28, 31 March 2010 (BST)


Thankyou Aichon!!! I presume by signature you meant timestamp? So i put one in :) I will check back here later this evening, see if the advert is in place, and then presumably delete this series of posts? Cheers! --T13 19:21, 31 March 2010 (BST)

Common Sense

Just wondering why there isn't a rule in place that lets us keep groups in the top ten active on the list without being based on a timestamp. Just seems like common sense that we shouldn't be deleting groups like DEM or ACC(which was just done) from here just because they have a smaller wiki presence than groups like the RRF, especially since groups like ACC who have been around for a very long time should be being given the benefit of the doubt about activity since people would notice their absence. Then again this page is pretty outdated anyway since stats page links now go directly to the wiki pages for those groups, might as well just delete the whole thing altogether. --Karekmaps?! 20:10, 27 March 2011 (BST)

I'm curious to see a response to this since it's kinda a big deal. This is me bumping it back into people's watchlists. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 14:20, 13 May 2011 (BST)
I'm not a fan of one set of rules for one group and another set of rules for others. I'm not sure I'd be behind deleting it, either since not all active groups are on the stats page. There's probably groups with only 9 members that would be excluded from stats but still would like to recruit via wiki. Category:Recruitment may not be the best way to recruit but its pretty established and newbies do in fact look at it. ~Vsig.png 14:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Good arguments for either way IMO. On one hand it makes sense because being that big implies that the group is still active. However, they might not be having a large recruitment drive compared to other groups so giving them a benefit other groups don't isn't so great IMO, especially when it's the smaller groups who need recruitments more. If this were to go to a vote though, I'd probably vote for it though, unless I get convinced otherwise from here on in. -- ϑanceϑanceevolution 14:35, 13 May 2011 (BST)
I'm not sure it's really understandable to say that a group with 60+ members for over five years isn't actively recruiting or active. That's the only way those groups can maintain those numbers. Take a group like MOB for example, that horde roughly changes all active non-leader member ship about once a year because if they weren't recruiting at that rate they'd largely be an idled out group. The standard rate of laying down in this game, or any for that matter, is enough that to maintain any group size over about 30 core members this has to be the case. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 14:51, 13 May 2011 (BST)

Also to note, we already do have a seperate rule for one type of group over another.

Large Groups or Organizations with significant subgroups are limited to one advert. This includes groups such as the DHPD and the DEM, they may use their advert to direct players to the separate sub-groups.

Category:Recruitment

Which is funny because I thought the consensus had been to remove this rule in place of something more general. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 15:18, 13 May 2011 (BST)

Current page is broken?

I thought for a second my advert had somehow done it, but I undid my change and it was still broken... I am no wiki expert. Can someone please fix it? Apologies if it was somehow my fault (like I said, I undid my change and it looked already broken...) --Lieutenant Tux 20:58, 2 June 2011 (BST)

It's not your fault, it's this ad. I'm trying to find what's wrong with it now. I blame Aichon, it's a mangling of a page of his. We're coming to get you, Barbara 21:16, 2 June 2011 (BST)
Ok thought it was the SoC ad. Glad to know I can stop barking up the wrong tree and someone else has eyes on it. ~Vsig.png 21:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
I accept no responsibility for misuse of my code without my consultation. >_> I wasn't even aware they had done that until I read this. Aichon 22:23, 25 July 2011 (BST)

AZDC ad

Why is this ad creating a separate 2nd level heading? I looked at the ad and the page code but I can't figure out why it's creating the "2.2 ANTI-ZOMBIE / DEATH CULTISTS" line in the page summary. --UroguyTMZ 20:12, 15 April 2012 (BST)

It's something in the AZDC ad's page code. Does it matter? It's not breaking the page or anything. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 20:24, 15 April 2012 (BST)
Nevermind, I'm blind. It's because the AZDC ad is using a header. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 20:33, 15 April 2012 (BST)
Yeah it has a subheader. Just checked and its not allowed. I'm a member of said group so will fix the subheader issue. I think it was for stylistic purposes more than anything. ~Vsig.png 20:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I swapped the header codes for big and underline codes for a similar effect. It shouldn't screw up the Recruitment page now. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 20:39, 15 April 2012 (BST)
That's fine. ~Vsig.png 20:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Need a clarification

The rules says, "No templates are allowed in your advert for technical reasons. Before you put up the advert, use subst to replace any template calls with the template's code." Can I get a clarification on that, please? When we say template, is this every single thing in the brackets, or are such things such as Template:Lgradient and other utility templates excluded and "Templates" here means something like Template:DramaLlama? --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 22:02, 25 May 2012 (BST)

There are no exclusions for "utility" templates. A template is a template, and that rule is in place for technical reasons, so it draws no distinction based on the purpose of the template. Aichon 22:31, 25 May 2012 (BST)
I really don't know...'cause the RRF's ad is using utility templates as well...They're using Template:c. That's why I'm pretty confused about this template stuff. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 22:36, 25 May 2012 (BST)

800x600

Out of complete curiosity, I adjusted my PC's display settings to 800x600, and adjusted my browser to view things in full screen (without that Status Bar in the bottom of the browser or the URL and Bookmarks tabs and stuff on the top of the browser), and, well... state two things.

  1. "When viewed on an 800*600 resolution, as a rough guideline your advert should not exceed 800px in height."
  2. "When viewed on an 800*600 resolution, your advert should not cause a horizontal scrollbar to appear."

Now here's the funny part...Almost every single ad on this page right now do not meet the standards. Here are the groups not in accordance with the rules:

That is 15 out of 25 total groups on this page that does not meet the standards laid out in the rules. Rules are rules, and I'm quite reluctant to remove all of these...What should we do? --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 23:41, 25 May 2012 (BST)

What the rule means is not to have a fixed width and/or height beyond 600/800px, whether by tables or by images. -- Spiderzed 23:53, 25 May 2012 (BST)
Neither of the items you cited are rules. The words "as a rough guideline" and "should" mean it's a guideline indicating best practice, not a rule. Most of the things up there are rules, but you picked out the two that weren't. So long as you make a good faith effort to not abuse the guidelines in an unscrupulous way (e.g. posting an obscenely tall ad), there isn't a problem. Aichon 00:05, 26 May 2012 (BST)
It's arguable both ways. One can say they're guidelines, another can claim rules. I think we need to be more clear on this guideline-rules thing. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 00:12, 26 May 2012 (BST)
What can be clearer than it saying "as a rough guideline"? And it's accepted everywhere that when something says "should" is isn't hard-and-fast. It's already clear. Aichon 00:28, 26 May 2012 (BST)

Yeha like aichon said, it's generally the case here that if it's a "should" rather than a "must" it's not a rule. Not that I'd be against changing it into one personally? DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 13:00, 26 May 2012 (BST)

Since we've decided that words have actual meanings rather than bullshit wiki interpretation can we fix the historical voting. "Within two weeks of a nomination, the group must be approved by 2/3 of the voters, ..." Ya know, because despite the common opinion on the wiki, within doesn't mean exactly. However, if we insist within means exactly, I see no reason we can't say if within=exactly then should=shall. --Open the Box Org XIII Alts 14:52, 26 May 2012 (BST)

Ugh, don't even get me started on Historical voting. But that's a separate issue that would need to be addressed elsewhere. Aichon 16:36, 26 May 2012 (BST)
Whatcha mean exactly? Having trouble following the specific problem you have. You think it shouldn't be a voting system? DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 10:02, 27 May 2012 (BST)
Actually OP is right. It was never intended to be subjective or optional. The rule it replaced was likewise, non-optional. Only the height limit is in any way non-restrictive. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 12:24, 27 May 2012 (BST)
Should is not a restrictive word, it makes a suggestion. As for the previous rule, it's just that, previous. --Open the Box Org XIII Alts 14:31, 27 May 2012 (BST)
What? yeah, all those examples indicate they are supposed to be rules... At what point did it get changed to should then? Deary me DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 15:08, 27 May 2012 (BST)
If the majority of the groups have been breaking the "rule" for years without complaint, that's a good indication it's a bad rule and should be replaced with the new de facto rule that has been in place. Rather than arguing what was or wasn't, let's just update what's written and call it a day. Aichon 22:33, 27 May 2012 (BST)
What's the most common low resolution these days? 1024×768? Although I try to make sure my pages scale to every resolution (and make complaints about those that do not, as I tend to run my browser windowed), we should really be trying for the lowest/most common denominator. (Mobiles are a special case, but that's why MediaWiki has mobile skins.) ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾ 01:13, 28 May 2012 (BST)
It's a standard internet design policy Aichon, y'all are just too lazy to actually check for functionality around here while enforcing the actually worthless rules and the people creating the articles don't know enough to give a damn. Here's a visual representation of various sizes along with the transmission types for them. 800x600(SVGA) is still the low end standard and will be at least until Win XP, and the Macintosh's go out. At which point it'll probably become 960x5/600 before going to 1024 because of things like the iPhone and Vita, etc that run that minimum aspect ratio. 1024 is the current generation set for Laptops and Netbooks, these standard exist to provide for last generational support.--Karekmaps 2.0?! 04:32, 28 May 2012 (BST)
I know the standard. It's about why this is considered a guide and not a rule. It has little to do with the actual... "rule" at hand (assuming it should have been one the whole time). DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 05:38, 28 May 2012 (BST)
You nailed me. I'm lazy. It's by chance that the barricade plans have color-blind friendly colors, the Click template gracefully degrades, and my group's recruitment ad was tweaked before your comment to be friendlier at lower resolutions. Everyone else thought I was putting in extra effort and cared about this stuff, but I sure fooled them. :P
Now, if you're willing to entertain the idea that I might have some awareness of common knowledge (in my line of work, no less), could you kindly re-read my last comment again? I wasn't speaking out of ignorance, and your post doesn't seem to provide a response to the things I said. Aichon 06:50, 28 May 2012 (BST)
Actually I was mostly referring to the page maintainers who are spending time enforcing rules that don't actually matter to the usefulness of the page over rules like this one that does. Also previously that this was actually a de facto rule. I glossed over that because I assumed that debate was settled with the previous links to that effect, only the height(600px) should be being subjectively enforced and, actually, there's an easier way to do that here through CSS since we could just tie the whole thing to a restricted width of 800 px(less if you include the wiki-margins). So, why don't we just do that and call it a day? --Karekmaps 2.0?! 11:16, 28 May 2012 (BST)
No issue here. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 13:40, 28 May 2012 (BST)
I'm fine with slapping everything into an 800-ish pixel wide div, since I'd imagine, though I haven't checked, that most of the offending ads are likely designed with that in mind anyway. It's only when you add the navigation bar that they run into issues. That was certainly the case with the SoC's ad. Aichon 21:53, 28 May 2012 (BST)
I shrunk my browser window to probably a 600px width and only a few ads stretched it. The RRF, Reddit survivor, and the Fortress have their ad set at 800px. Malton Department of Defense has theirs locked in at 760px, Soldiers of Crossman at 705px and Annus Horribilus at 665px. All the other ads seemed to shrink perfectly fine. I would say with that in mind putting a div in is unneeded. Most ads look better on a larger window and as long as everything will compress down to 800px a div is redundant and just makes things look worse for those with larger resolutions.        21:49, 31 May 2012 (BST)
Maybe there's a way to put them in a div that grows and shrinks with the page, but which uses the overflow:hidden CSS property to hide any content that would have caused horizontal scrollbars? That way people with larger screens are happy, and people with smaller screens don't get scrollbars, though they do get cut off ads. Doing so would provide some motivation to the creators of those ads to make sure they worked at smaller sizes. Not sure if that's really any better than what we have now, however. Aichon 21:59, 31 May 2012 (BST)
You mean something like, <div style="width:(number)%; min-width:700px; overflow-x:hidden;">? I have that, or something close to it, used on my userpage where you can scroll down to see more templates. Although the width is fixed in that example.        03:21, 1 June 2012 (BST)
There's not and all that would do is make it so that the page is never smaller than 700px. All the proposed secondary idea would functionally do is nothing since non-overflow limited width ends up taking the last assigned element as the value instead of inheriting a value. Max-width:800px + overflow-x:hidden is the only universal way to enforce this rule 100%, and even that won't count margins, borders, or padding in it's element(which is probably the issue with the ad's in question). --Karekmaps 2.0?! 04:14, 1 June 2012 (BST)
So, all we've effectively done is make everyone with better resolutions have a worse experience while doing nothing to fix the actual problem of people at 800x600 since they still have to scroll because of the nav bar. I'm as much to blame as everyone else, since I said I didn't have a problem with it. Now I'm reconsidering my stance. Mazu's idea has all of the benefits we were wanting: it discourages bad behavior by cutting off large ads, it allows users with better resolutions to enjoy the benefits thereof, and it allows us to lock in a min-width so that ads that abide by convention aren't harmed. It doesn't prevent scrollbars (neither does the current fixed-width solution as it's currently implemented), but it does ensure that there is no visible content whatsoever there that they might be missing. I think that's a good compromise all around from what we had before and what we have at the moment. Aichon 07:59, 3 June 2012 (BST)
Sorry but you're wrong. The edit you just undid did actually prevented scroll bars on anything over 800px wide in that portion of the page. Your edit now forces a minimum page width with no other effect than to have an x-overflow prevention that does nothing now. Basically you've made the problem worse not better. My version was both tested and verified before implementation on a lowered resolutions. As is no content should be over 800px in that portion of the page per rules so any scroll bars it didn't cause, due to cutting the overflow, shouldn't have been there in the first place. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 10:17, 3 June 2012 (BST)
Also width:100% isn't a useful style in any way. It's default functionality, adds literally nothing other than code. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 10:19, 3 June 2012 (BST)
You are correct on most points, but incorrect on one or two. Unless we come up with a better solution, however, this is all going to be about choosing compromises. The 800px fixed width didn't account for the vertical navigation bar and margins, so it still forced horizontal scrollbars and clipped content at 800x600 (621 doesn't account for vertical scrollbars, to be fair, so even it should be knocked down another 10-15px). Granted, we could have knocked it down, but at that point we're ruining the page for the 99.9% of our users with resolutions higher than 800x600. Mazu's solution forces horizontal scrollbars, but no clipped content, meaning that they need never use the scrollbars. The min-width does have a purpose: it prevents ads that abide by the guidelines from being clipped if the window becomes too small; only those ads that try to use more than the allotted width will find themselves being clipped. As for 100%, you're right. Brain fart on my part. Late night editing FTL. Aichon 15:02, 3 June 2012 (BST)
Min-Width under screen width on a div that's 80% screen width has no effect. Min-width is for use with small content divs with adjustable width, etc. It's literally worthless when it's less than Max-width here. Also Mazu's code and mine use the same code to clip except his doesn't actually do anything since it clips at 100% width and uses min-width to make a portion of the page that's always over 700px be always over 700px. Literally all that can does is ruin scalability on Mobile Platforms, which is why it's always bad design to use fixed min-widths. Also on most all modern and current browsers x-overflow:hidden clips the content before it could add scroll bars so if they're appearing your browser is not CSS2.0 compliant. You'll only run into scrollbars if you're re-sizing your window manually, not actually changing resolution. If issue is that the whole page including headers was tied to that 800px that's an easy fix without reversion overkill, just put it subheader in each recruitment alphabetical section. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 15:09, 4 June 2012 (BST)
I don't quite follow where the 80% stuff came form, but min-width serves a purpose here. Shrink your browser below 800x600 and you'll see that it keeps the ads from getting cut off any further. I also just tweaked it to work properly at 800x600, since before I failed to account for vertical scrollbars and UI chrome. Anyway, your last comment and your edit note have me convinced that we're simply not on the same wavelength, whereas I'd like to be working together coherently. I'll follow up below in a new section. Aichon 18:26, 4 June 2012 (BST)
Quick note: my issue was not that the headings were also at 800px wide. My issue was that we were effectively wasting space for users at higher resolutions, forcing them to scroll vertically unnecessarily. Also, yes, this is a reversal on one of my earlier stances. Anyway, follow up discussion below. I just wanted to clarify what my issue was. Aichon 18:32, 4 June 2012 (BST)
Ok, I'm not seeing in what way this would effect vertical scrolling at all. It also shouldn't have an impact on adjusted browser size since that doesn't actually impact pixels used in a div, if you have a small browser window you have a horizontal scroll because the div space you have is less than 800px, probably due to the left hand margin on the wiki. The 20% is a rough estimate of the left hand margin size. It's probably fixed width actually. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 19:41, 7 June 2012 (BST)
By using a fixed-width div, we were making the ads taller for people with higher resolutions (i.e. most of our users) while creating unused whitespace to the side(s) of the ads. That's what I meant about wasted space and extra vertical scrolling. As for everything else, could we follow up below? I think the two of us got hung up on details, and I'd like to get back to the big picture. Aichon 20:26, 7 June 2012 (BST)

Anybody else experiencing the sidebar disappearing to the bottom of the page because of this edit? --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 22:34, 2 June 2012 (BST)

It means there's an unclosed div somewhere in the page. Probably in one of the templates. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 02:25, 3 June 2012 (BST)
New_Roman_Republic/recruit had embedded unclosed tables. Should be fixed now. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 02:35, 3 June 2012 (BST)
Ack. Could we at least center it? Might not be as bad then..        03:19, 3 June 2012 (BST)
Center what now? --Karekmaps 2.0?! 15:09, 4 June 2012 (BST)
He was talking about with your solution. It was left-aligned. Aichon 18:26, 4 June 2012 (BST)

Goals and Solutions Discussion

I think we need to back up and get on the same page as far as what we're striving for, then figure out where to go from there. Here are the goals I'm currently hoping to achieve:

  1. Don't force horizontal scrollbars at 800x600 or greater resolutions
  2. Ensure that ads which follow the guidelines do not get clipped at any resolution (e.g. 640x480, other mobile resolutions, etc.)
  3. Allow ads to use the full width when the resolution is over 800x600

I see #1 as a requirement and #2 and #3 as being good things to have (#3 in particular, since it applies to the vast majority of our users). Do we all agree on these points? If not, how should these points be expanded, reduced, reworded, or rethought? Near as I can tell, the current implementation (min-width:598px; overflow:hidden) seems to fulfill all three, which leads me to think that I'm not on the same page with everyone else regarding what we want out of this. Aichon 18:26, 4 June 2012 (BST)

Just make it so any Ad with a fixed width either by property or image is under a certain width so it wont force horizontal scroll bars on the 800x600 resolution. My understanding is that the 800px width includes all screen elements, nav bar, scroll bars, etc. Have this accounted for, as it seems Aichon has done. In that fashion higher resolutions don't see any negative aesthetics but lower resolutions are accommodated. Lastly revise the directives, orders, acts, laws, statutes, edicts, canons, mandates, commands, dictate, decrees, fiats, injunctions, commandments, stipulations, requirements, guidelines, directions, ordinances, et. al any other synonyms I missed... accordingly.
Clarification/TL:DR- I'm suggesting a plain and simple rule change saying your Ad can not have a fixed width, by image or property, that is above (600?) pixels.        02:50, 6 June 2012 (BST)
I'm pretty sure the only reason the rule exists in the first place is so that people don't use giant page consuming images in their ads. I doubt seriously screen resolution has anything to do with it at all. It was just a bad attempt to make the guideline make sense to the layman. Oh and you're all mentally retarded. ~Vsig.png 03:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
How is throwing down a screen resolution more in layman's terms than giving a simple width value?        01:56, 7 June 2012 (BST)
Operative words: bad attempt. ~Vsig.png 02:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The previously linked conversations show you're wrong. Oh so wrong. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 19:41, 7 June 2012 (BST)
What if, rather than mixing rules and suggestions, we break it into rules that must be followed and a different section which gives guidelines/suggestions. And if the main goal or side goal or whatever is stopping massive ads, really there should be a maximum ad height rule. --Open the Box Org XIII Alts 22:49, 6 June 2012 (BST)

Spicer Hills Rangers

I got no idea what they've done but they have two listings and neither looks like it's done right. Can someone fix that? I got no clue how the recruitment page works. --Open the Box Org XIII Alts 23:00, 11 October 2012 (BST)

Done a quick bodge job. Should look better at least. --Ross Less Ness Enter Stranger... 23:10, 11 October 2012 (BST)

scroll bar

Might just be me, but I get an internal scroll bar for just the group listings (the scroll bar stops before the text listing of groups, it's just for the adverts. I'm using (probably) the latest firefox. Should that be there? --K 21:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Appears to be something specific to you. I'm not seeing it in a (relatively) clean copy of the latest version of Firefox, nor am I seeing it in Chrome. See if disabling add-ons/userscripts affects it? I'd be interested if you can figure out what's causing it, since I've not heard of something like that. Aichon 22:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Question

Could we move the formatting instructions to the end of the page, so the groups appear closer to the top? I do notice {{:Recruitment/intro}} includes both the top section (which should stay, about this being where to post ads) and maybe add a line that the formatting help can be found at the bottom of the page. --K 19:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure, makes sense, Recruitment/intro is open to editing and a new transcluded formatting section can be put at the bottom of the page. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 16:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I probably should have waited for more consensus, but eh. Anyways, I left the original recruit intro alone, so undoing the revision will put everything back. --K 17:12, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Just wanna say I endorse this move. Bob Moncrief EBDW! 21:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Help with a advert for the Malton Anarchists Union

PLEASE!!! I need help making the Malton Anarchists Union advert. Could you actually help me build it, or at least give me pointers? Thanks!--Anarchist115 (talk) 07:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. Bob Moncrief EBDW! 13:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


Category:Recruitment Rules Voting

Timestamps MkII

Groups who show on the game statistics page are to be exempted from having to update the timestamp on their advertisements. They simply link to the stats page on the recruitment page (not inside their own recruitment template), with a timestamp (to indicate how long ago they were confirmed as being active), and as long as they show on the page (by having 10+ members) their ad remains valid regardless of the timestamp's age. This will allows the recruitment page maintainers to independently verify, at any time, that they are still active (and to update the timestamp themselves whenever they do it so others don't have to check for a period). Timestamped ads (as currently used) would still remain valid.
I'll open this for voting if no issues are raised -- boxy 11:22, 13 February 2012 (BST)

I support this for the reason of it's common sense and makes page maintenance easier. Let's see if it's swung back to where it was a few years ago as far as the view of making Recruitment work for the users AND the maintainers. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 16:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good enough to me. -- Spiderzed 18:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Voting (Timestamps MkII)

  1. For - It means less work for both groups and for maintenance, without allowing defunct recruitment adds to remain -- boxy 08:41, 14 February 2012 (BST)
  2. For Common sense over procedure! --Rosslessness 09:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  3. For don't know what i'm voting for, but i doubt if anyone pays attention to timestamps Son of Sin 11:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  4. Against If you want a recruitment ad spend the 1 minute to update the timestamp. --Bad Attitude Kirsty K.C. R&D d.b.a. Org XIII 15:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  5. Against takes 1 min, stats page inaccurate when showing actual group activity, etc etc DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 18:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  6. Against - DDR has a point, actually. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 19:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  7. For -- Spiderzed 19:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
    Against - Aichon's arguments have swayed me. It would increase workload on the janitors for little benefit. -- Spiderzed 18:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  8. Against Per above. There's also something backwards about the big groups with plenty of active people no longer having to do the pitiful task that is maintaining a timestamp, while small and new groups, who are in much more dire need to recruit, do. -- Cat Pic.png Thadeous Oakley Talk 20:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  9. For -- This is a stupid rule historically used primarily by people who want to power trip on big groups. The accuracy argument is an excuse, and an inaccurate one at that. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 20:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
    I would counter that at the moment the Malton Police Department is on the stat page but not Red Rum. --Bad Attitude Kirsty K.C. R&D d.b.a. Org XIII 21:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
    So the MPD has active members and RedRum has a very small member base. That doesn't change anything, especially not any arguments about accuracy. It doesn't even stop you from removing the recruitment advertisements of stated dead groups. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 00:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    Red Rum is historically known for, shall we say, creative tagging. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾ 14:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  10. Question : What about prolonging the time required before the timestamp needs updating? --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 21:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
    That would just make the recruitment page even worse. The reason for the timestamp is so that all those groups that get created, and then die within weeks don't clutter up the page. The whole timestamp thing is there to get rid of short lived groups so that newbies arn't trying to contact someone who has left the game already. That's why the current system, and this one as well, favours large groups. They are more stable, and reliable, and therefore a better bet when someone is actively looking for a group to join -- boxy 07:28, 15 February 2012 (BST)
    I'm not sure if there are very many short-lived groups being added to the page frequently. Most of the edits seem to be updating timestamps or re-adding recruitments. Checking the recent history will show this, and I skimmed it mostly, so I think we can disregard that point now as it's no longer relevant (and the real reason for timestamps is not shunting the little temporary groups, but rather primarily to make sure recruitments are for active groups, which can be of any size). The groups that benefit are those that are active on the wiki, which isn't precisely the same as those that are active in-game, and those who are active in-game don't always comply with stat page group member numbers for whatever reason. I suppose the point to all this is reducing the workload, which is why I offered increasing the time before a timestamp ought to be updated, making the need less frequent, although what I said fails to fix a problem that doesn't matter anyways. This game is becoming less frequented, little here is of much consequence except perhaps encouraging more platers, this recruitment page updating thing is more of a minor annoyance; and I'm going with Thad because, with what is proposed, it is discriminatory against groups for being not on the stats page, although "discriminatory" is too heavy a word here. Against. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 00:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
    The reason this isn't that is the same people now claiming it's an inconvenience for small groups were previously claiming it's "very little work" down below even though it was a massive inconvenience at the time and they'd just used it to harass a group right before that vote. This is more or less a status quo is good and I've never been put out by this vote for a number of these same people. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 13:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
  11. Against - This idea creates more work and spreads it among less people by replacing one type of timestamp with another, shifting the responsibility of updating the timestamps from the people reaping the rewards to a few janitors, and forcing the janitors to individually verify about 2/3 (currently 19/29) of the groups by hand (i.e. extra work that no one currently has to do). It also favors the larger groups, as Thad said, and gives the timestamps inconsistent meanings (some get deleted outright while others need to be checked first, then deleted or updated), leading to mistakes. I'd support something that reduced the net workload, but this isn't it. Aichon 22:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
    In what possible way? This idea means that anyone can confirm activity for these groups and mark that they're on the stats page w/ timestamp for last check. The suggestion that it's more work to click the stats page when it's flagged than to click edit and DELETE automatically is fictitious, the assumption that this would cause more work to do one link click than having to repeatedly re-delete these groups(as current) is also kinda bull. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 00:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    Even though anyone could confirm it, we both know that only two or three people actually will. Also, you should be editing the ad regardless, either to update the timestamp or delete the ad, so having to verify their activity is indeed extra work. As for re-deletes being more work, only three groups on the stats page in the last two months have been deleted then re-added. In contrast, you'd have to verify activity and edit the ad for 19 groups every two months with this new suggestion. Also, see below for why I don't think re-deletes would be going away. Aichon 17:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    No, you wouldn't. You cut off half of the work just by doing this. Yes, I know MOB, DEM, the RRF, and FU are around, I know they will never not be recruiting. I just saved those maintainers some time and the server some process by not requiring they needlessly do a small edit every two months so show us they are still around(something we already know and can check with easily). I just stopped you from having to re-delete them, as all of those groups have had happen for no good justifiable reason other than some false fairness of "if I have to prove I exist you have to prove it twice". Three less edits, less hoops for people maintaining advertisements, don't encourage bad maintenance by claiming that they should be doing less work than verifying the groups existence, it's a shitty excuse. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 20:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    This suggestion keeps timestamps on all of the groups. I'm trying to reconcile that with what you just said, which, from what I gather, is that we shouldn't bother updating timestamps for well known groups or using them to decide when to delete their ads. It makes sense on the surface, but if we did that those timestamps would be vestigial text with no purpose. Admittedly, it'd mean less overall edits (but still more for janitors), but I can't imagine you proposing that we put text that we have no intention of using on a page. Help a guy out? Aichon 22:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    Personally I think that's where it's at anyway with good maintenance practice(sometimes a rarity in this part of the wiki). However, the time stamp isn't useless, it's just something that serve a useless purpose, which is that it tries to gauge if a group is active and has an interest in recruiting, which all of these groups already do and show through game standard methods. We're needlessly doubling their work with something 90% of the people ignore anyway and for a page that already doesn't show dividends. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 13:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
    Fair enough. It's obvious we're going to disagree on this suggestion, though I do like that you guys made an effort to do something about this problem (and I definitely agree that it is a problem). Also, I think this page is still valuable. At least with the SoC, probably half of our recruits who mention where they first heard about us cite the wiki. And as I said, I'm in support of decreasing the necessary work involved, but all of the ideas behind this suggestion have tradeoffs I don't like. Aichon 17:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
    Have you considered that anyone who regularly patrols the recruitment page would know that they don't have to check quite a few of the groups, because they would know they are still active, and have 10+ members without even looking -- boxy 07:28, 15 February 2012 (BST)
    I had not, but that practice encourages the sort of problem Zach just described. If the timestamps aren't being reliably updated, the groups hovering around 10 members (roughly a third of the 19) will be subject to being removed immediately if they just happen to have a day when they dip below 10 members. It definitely would be less work if it were done that way, but I feel the tradeoffs are not worth it. Aichon 17:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    Groups that hover around 10 members would be much better off using a normal timestamp (as everyone uses now), and there is nothing stopping them from continuing to do so -- boxy 19:39, 15 February 2012 (BST)
    Also it'd have to be a week-month at below 10 members so that's a nonstarter anyway. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 20:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    It doesn't matter when a group gets delisted. It matters that they got delisted. Aichon 22:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    It does because your claiming it's something that happens left and right, it's not. It's something that takes a very long time to do and there are numerous opportunities to avoid that fate. It's very easy to just get one more person to set their tag for a day.--Karekmaps 2.0?! 13:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
    I never claimed that. And five days, which I believe is the lag with the stats page reporting inactivity, is not "a very long time". Finally, the point is that it's something they may be unaware of that nips them in the bud when they're not checking for a few days, but which is easy to avoid, as you point out. That's a trap. As boxy said, better that they just stick to the old style timestamps. Aichon 17:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
    I definitely agree that it makes sense for them. But that feels odd to me, since it'd be a system that introduces additional risk to groups that fall into that trap. It would also reduce the benefit of this suggestion to only about a dozen groups. Aichon 22:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
    What's wrong with that? Those dozen groups are the only ones who have had to keep updating their timestamps year after year after year. But, whatever. The majority have made it clear that they're going to have to keep updating those timestamps until the game dies... and so it shall be -- boxy 07:39, 16 February 2012 (BST)
    It still favors the big groups, and reducing it to a dozen just emphasizes that fact. And I long for an alternative solution now that I've stepped out of wiki life and have a different perspective. I just don't think this is the right one. Abolishing the timestamps to make it like Community Projects, increasing the time limit, or allowing longtime advertisers to update less frequently are all ideas I find interesting to consider, but someone would need to actually think through them to figure out what the issues are and whether or not they're workable. Some of those have very obvious issues, but I'd be curious if there are solutions to them. Aichon 17:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
    Go at it -- boxy 07:49, 17 February 2012 (BST)
  12. Against it's really not that much work. --User:Sexualharrison22:26, 14 February 2012 (bst)
  13. Against Use one set of rules for everyone and don't punish those not yet or no longer on stats. ~Vsig.png 00:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  14. Against - Simply because I could see problems arising when groups are still active, but slip off the stats page and don't bother checking.--~ MDD Logo.png Zach016 D.H.H.S. 01:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  15. Against - Thadeous Oakley makes a valid point about the fact that small groups are more affected than larger groups with more people. However, I think the real problem here is that it takes very little effort for the groups, while increasing the necessary effort for the maintenance workers.--Shortround 13:41, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  16. For - Hibernaculum 21:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
  17. For - As boxy and Ross.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  02:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  18. Against -- So, for some groups, you are trading in a timestamp for a different timestamp? Asheets 19:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
  19. Against -- As V4por. I think this is unfair toward smaller groups. Jesus Sante CFT 03:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  20. For - clean and simple. why not --    : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  21. For - MHSstaff 03:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
  22. For - A reduction in wanky, self-important bureaucracy on the UD Wiki? About time. --Papa Moloch 14:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Timestamps

Lets just remove timestamps for group advertisements. It's better to have maintainers actively contact groups to check on their advertisements anyhow since that's what they should already be doing. Seems best to get rid of the single most needlessly frustrating and generally useless requirement for using this page.

Voting(Timestamps)

  1. Author Vote -- This really doesn't need much discussion, either it'll pass or it won't. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 15:24, 13 May 2011 (BST)
  2. Against - many groups are barely to completely inactive on the wiki, and so are not easy to get in touch with. Time-stamps are the easiest and most manageable way to check on activity and to keep the page from getting cluttered. We could talk about using longer durations to reduce hassle for less active groups, but the principle should be kept. --Oh, and vote on Project Funny, by the way. -- Spiderzed 15:42, 13 May 2011 (BST)
    Comment - This change allows quicker response times to vanishing groups. If the concern is groups going inactive requiring a set time frame before following up is actually at the expense of the page's usefulness. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 15:53, 13 May 2011 (BST)
  3. Against - As Spiderzed. Many groups aren't active on the wiki and only come on to update their timestamps, and some who are on the wiki never check their group talk pages.--Yonnua Koponen T G P ^^^ 16:09, 13 May 2011 (BST)
  4. Against as spidey and yon -- HEY! HANDS OFF MAH BOOBS!   bitch  16:37, 13 May 2011 (utc)
  5. Means no trawling the page for the timestamps that are about to run out. Asking the groups all at once if they are recruiting means the process becomes a bimonthly task, not a constant one. - User:Whitehouse 16:56, 13 May 2011 (BST)
  6. I actually don't see too many problems with removing timestamps that can't be worked around. As long as shiny templates are involved, I can get behind it. ~Vsig.png 17:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
  7. Against-MHSstaff 17:59, 13 May 2011 (BST)
    Note - The above was an against that had no comment because someone altered the vote format. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 19:17, 14 May 2011 (BST)
  8. Against - Keep the bastarding things. Reduce the overall wait time to remove ads, though. We're coming to get you, Barbara 19:26, 13 May 2011 (BST)
    Comment - The wait time isn't going to change. Here's why .and the unanimous vote. The purpose of the timestamp has always been to have an activity check to make sure the groups still exist. There are easier ways to do that namely, [www.urbandead.com/stats.html Stats.html] or Talk Pages. This is the approach taken for things like the GSGM and it has proven more reliable and less hostile than timed check-ins on many occasions. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 04:21, 14 May 2011 (BST)
  9. ♪Do it now, because you can and I think you should. ♫ ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾ 04:51, 14 May 2011 (BST)
  10. Against - As Mis. Aichon 02:37, 14 May 2011 (BST)
  11. Against - no need to fix something not broken... it's not hard to remember to update the timestamp --Undeadite.jpgsurfincow U 06:34, 14 May 2011 (BST)
  12. Against - Not a good reason to remove timestamps. --Private Mark 23:44, 14 May 2011 (BST)
  13. Against - As Spiderzed. Jesus Sante CFT 18:36, 16 May 2011 (BST)
  14. Against - As SurfinCow -- Asheets 19:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Amendment to Page Rules

Given the relatively low traffic of the game overall now compared to its heyday, individuals now seem to spend a lot more time on maintenance and appearance on their groups' wiki sections, including recruitment ads. Couple this with the relatively high rate of groups crashing and burning quickly, and this page is often full of a mix of well-pruned ads for active groups, and dead ads for groups that haven't yet expired for a full two months, but inevitably will. I propose reducing the linger time from two months since the last timestamp down to one month from the last timestamp, before an ad is removed. This will have minimal effect on active groups, due to both their activity keeping the ad alive, and their ability to re-add it if it's removed, due to the fact that, well, they're still active. This will only have a genuine effect on housekeeping as it will allow for the pruning of ads sooner, rather than waiting for them to hit the two-month mark when it's clear they won't be updated. No other inclusion rules will be amended by this, simply the length of time a timestamp will keep an ad on the page for. Just a cursory vote should settle this, there's no need to go to A/PD for it.

So, there's actually no policy or guideline regarding how long these things are up for vote, last I checked (though I may be incorrect). While I'd prefer one week, just to get it done faster, two weeks would probably be better, just to give as many people as possible a chance to chime in while also avoiding any allegations of trying to railroad the changes through. Thoughts? Aichon 00:28, 27 July 2010 (BST)
Give it one. Every group on the page has been notified already. We're coming to get you, Barbara 00:29, 27 July 2010 (BST)
Give it two. Especially as you've directed them all to the wrong page, and this is the kind of thing that could be included simply on the main page. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 15:53, 27 July 2010 (BST)
I did? We're coming to get you, Barbara 15:55, 27 July 2010 (BST)
Yip. Category, instead of category talk. You could of even linked this specific header. Ive added it to the news box. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 15:59, 27 July 2010 (BST)
Oh I thought you meant I'd linked something completely different entirely. We're coming to get you, Barbara 16:01, 27 July 2010 (BST)

After one week, the votes were at 11 For to 8 Against, and after two, the votes were at 14 For to 16 Against. The archives give no help regarding how long voting should last (though I'd say it's safe to assume we shouldn't let it go beyond two), and I can't find any definitive guidelines or rules for how voting on this page should work. Since the archives mostly show consensus polling and straw votes, however, and it's clear that this is a divisive issue lacking support across the board, I'd say it's probably best not to move forward with it, despite the fact that I would have preferred otherwise. Thoughts from those involved? Aichon 20:50, 9 August 2010 (BST)

Grr! Argh! *shaking fist* We're coming to get you, Barbara 20:55, 9 August 2010 (BST)
Policy votes run for 2 weeks, right? Use the timescale for PD.--User:Yonnua Koponen/signature2 21:02, 9 August 2010 (BST)
That's effectively what I'm suggesting, except without the whole "changing the rules after the fact" aspect. If we had agreed on it beforehand, that'd be great, but since we didn't, choosing one or the other will inevitably be met with strife. Instead, I'm basically saying we shouldn't worry about whether it was one week or two, since it doesn't matter. What does matter is that there is no clear consensus, and in the lack of a clear consensus, the status quo should be maintained, based on the history of this page. Aichon 21:19, 9 August 2010 (BST)
Rule of thumb is always two. Nothing on the wiki really runs longer or less. --Karekmaps?! 21:28, 12 August 2010 (BST)
A/RE. We're coming to get you, Barbara 22:15, 12 August 2010 (BST)

For

  1. That Misanthropy guy makes sense to me. We're coming to get you, Barbara 03:54, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    I'd never known this to be a problem,... and had never really thought about it. Perhaps, instead, we could do away with the two month period, and timestamps altogethor,.... and do a once a month cleanup, like the Great Suburb Massacre,... just for ads instead. And I'd be willing to oversee that myself if people are interested, and once it's hashed out.... - Poodle of Doom 04:01, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Way too complicated, the timestamp method is nice and simple. We're coming to get you, Barbara 04:03, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Wouldn't you have to check the space somewhat regularly to verify the timestamps, and remove the outdated ads? My suggetion requires this to be done not necessarily more than once a month. My suggestion seems to save time, not add to a burden... - Poodle of Doom 04:06, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Aich and I tend to check it regularly anyway. Your way would require contacting groups and waiting for replies, the current system is instantaneous. We're coming to get you, Barbara 04:08, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Yeah, Mis, myself, and sometimes a few others (Rooster sometimes, when he's around) keep it tidy on a regular basis. Adding extra overhead just creates more work. It's not so much a matter of doing the work of cleaning, as much as it is being allowed to clean them out regularly. Two months leaves us with a lot of groups that only lasted for two weeks at a time. Aichon 04:18, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Well, one month is still two weeks to long isn't it? - Poodle of Doom 04:24, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    It's all about striking a balance between getting rid of inactive groups, and not having to constantly hassle groups about their status in-game. A month is ideal for this. Linkthewindow  Talk  13:04, 24 July 2010 (BST)
  2. As Misanthropy. Aichon 03:57, 24 July 2010 (BST)
  3. I'm pretty sure I suggested a one-month period last time we did this. Still a good idea. Linkthewindow  Talk  06:44, 24 July 2010 (BST)
  4. As Link. --Maverick Talk - OBR Praise Knowledge! 404 09:08, 24 July 2010 (BST)
  5. As Misanthropy. That guy really do make sense. Technical Pacifist 11:41, 24 July 2010 (BST)
  6. For it, provided all currently listed groups are notified on their talk page, as not everyone is going to catch the subtle difference in the small print. -- Spiderzed 14:39, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Out of about 40 groups currently advertising, only 11 would be affected if we enacted it right now. Looking at those 11, I can tell you right now that none of them have a great track record of maintaining their own ads. Five of the groups are veteran groups that regularly let their ads expire and then simply repost them sometime later, four of them are veteran groups that let them expire about as often as they remember to renew them, and two of the groups are brand new and have never renewed their ads. Aichon 00:07, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    If this is this is something this user is interested in seeing happen, I'd be willing to contact all the groups currently advertising. Otherwise, slap a notice on the front of the recruitment page, and be done with it? - Poodle of Doom 00:14, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    I'd probably contact them myself when it comes up - it's 15 minutes of work to C&P some notice on ~40 group talk pages, and that's taking the time for the original write-up into account. -- Spiderzed 00:22, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    At that, I'd be willing to make your job easier. A-M and N-Z. You take one set, I'll take the other. - Poodle of Doom 00:30, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    I'll take N-Z. That way I don't have to contact my own groups, which would be... bizzarre. -- Spiderzed 00:42, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    Mis is already on it,... never mind.... anyway,... if I had A-M,... I'd have to contact my group.... - Poodle of Doom 00:46, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    Done. Figured it made more sense coming from the author. We're coming to get you, Barbara 00:52, 25 July 2010 (BST)
  7. Sounds good to me, if groups don't like going onto the wiki often then that shows they don't really care about advertising their group.--Raddox MurTangle 00:55, 25 July 2010 (BST)
  8. It makes sense. --Austin Hunt 01:59, 25 July 2010 (BST)
  9. One month sounds good. I do believe that active groups should be able to have at least one single person visit the wiki twelve times a year. G F J 11:08, 25 July 2010 (BST)
  10. Sounds like a plan. --Dawkins DAWKINS IS WATCHIN' [T][P!][W!][] is currently: having his arm torn off by a zombie. 17:56, 27 July 2010 (BST)
  11. I like 1 month. I actually wouldn't mind 1 week either. Asheets 20:18, 27 July 2010 (BST)
  12. I agree. --Colette Hart 06:43, 1 August 2010 (BST)
  13. Agreed, it helps all parties involved.User:Delt 04:02, 3 August 2010 (BST)
  14. As Misanthropy. -- Goribus 08:52, 4 August 2010 (BST)
  15. Twelve times a year. Deal with it.--Ryvyoli Y R 08:29, 7 August 2010 (BST)
  16. Sounds like a good plan to me Symbiote spiderman14 13:20, 7 August 2010 (BST)
  17. Also I would like to point out that it's not my fault that no one but me voted on that vote DDR linked! - User:Whitehouse 21:18, 8 August 2010 (BST)
  18. Makes sense to me -- Rooney 16:35, 12 August 2010 (BST)

Against

  1. Hmm. I'm not big on recruitment page but I like 2 months cause it means less hassle for groups that don't like going on the wiki. Maybe change the rules to say that groups may have their recruitments removed without notice if they aren't on the stats page? -- 06:56, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Wouldn't that mean that the groups most in need of recruiting are effectively not allowed to recruit? Aichon 08:44, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Well, that's the reason why I said may, hopefully if it happened it would be used with more tact than to just kill the recruitment if it's been a week since signing. Ah well. -- 08:52, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Also, lol @ this vote! -- 08:58, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    It doesn't get much more definitive than that! Aichon 09:12, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    Is it possable to put these kind of votes on the wiki news template? - Poodle of Doom 22:57, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    I don't see a reason to, honestly, since any involved parties would have this page watched already, and this voting isn't governed by any policies. It's more or less just tradition. If we wanted to get technical, aside from the concern that people would get upset over it and try to start an A/VB case, there's really nothing to stop us from just changing the guidelines unilaterally and then acting on the new guidelines as such. Aichon 23:53, 24 July 2010 (BST)
    I see. Like in the case DDR presented, it seems foolish to have it decided by one person. Whatever though... - Poodle of Doom 00:32, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    The point of putting it on the community page is mainly to raise awareness. "There's a recruitment page?" Plus it encourages more people to get involved in the maintenance of the wiki. We don't want to have to rely on Boxy forever. (On a side note, I only have 2 pages on my watchlist.) --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 13:15, 28 July 2010 (BST)
  2. Against The recruitment page is much smaller than it used to be, and now encompasses only one city. 2 months is fine. Plus I'm massively drunk. Thank god for spellcheckers.--RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 01:16, 25 July 2010 (BST)
  3. Against Well, as you asked. I understand why the wiki-maintainers would want to make this change, makes perfect sense from their side. But as a user of this page it's already a hassle having to remember to update the dates every two months, let alone one month. Of course, if other members of my groups weren't so fucking lazy I wouldn't be the only one doing the updating. Such a hassle to be updating things with deadlines, am so busy already, weed doesn't smoke itself you know! x --    : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : 02:18, 25 July 2010 (BST)
    Goddamn it I love you Clitoria. Marry me. -- 16:01, 27 July 2010 (BST)
    Clitoria Revolution? I'm sure I've seen that. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 16:15, 27 July 2010 (BST)
    Another downside, those of us who "watch" the rec-page will get twice as many fucking subscription emails. --    : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : 19:21, 2 August 2010 (BST)
    Not necessarily. A lot of the ads have their dates embedded in the ad itself, rather than on this page. See MOB, for instance. You won't get e-mails for them. Aichon 21:06, 2 August 2010 (BST)
  4. Super Against - Both against the policy and against DDR's suggestion. As Ross.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 00:33, 27 July 2010 (BST)
  5. Against - Two months is fine, and I'm also the only member of my group that checks it, I'd go with without making a hassle even more annoying. --Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 16:34, 27 July 2010 (BST)
  6. Against - Makes a ridiculous amount of work for groupies. --VVV RPMBG 18:56, 27 July 2010 (BST)
    Having to update a timestamp six more times a year is ridiculous? Aichon 23:21, 27 July 2010 (BST)
    Having to remember to do it is more of a hassle than actually doing it. I hate doing it, even six times per year, yet alone 12. Just having to remember is a ridiculous amount of work! --    : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : 16:50, 31 July 2010 (BST)
  7. As DDR. You don't see the C4NT updating every month, yet we're as active as can be, despite our numbers having dwindled... --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 07:36, 28 July 2010 (BST)
    The point's not really about group activity, it's about actively maintaining a group's ad. When you come to this page looking for something to join, odds are you're going to be turned off on a group that hasn't fixed it in months, so it's not really going to hurt any group to update more often. Also C4NT aren't on the ad page anyway! Tongue :P We're coming to get you, Barbara 12:19, 28 July 2010 (BST)
  8. Against - I can't speak for The Fortress here, but I don't often remember to check to make sure our Ad is still up. It's a bother to see that it's been down for a month just because we don't loiter around the wiki. Why not use the stats page to check group activity? Most groups that have been around a while are on there somewhere ... ~ Prep Fortress - BS 21:18, 28 July 2010 (BST)
    Yeah, if a group isn't on the stats page, it should have to update, but if it is, then you know they're active, even if not on the wiki. --VVV RPMBG 21:28, 28 July 2010 (BST)
  9. Against - Basically the same thing as my mate above me; Just check the stats page to see if they're active or not. Paul Henderson 16:24, 31 July 2010 (BST)
    but active groups with <10 wouldn't show up. --    : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : 16:47, 31 July 2010 (BST)
  10. Against - The Fortress are very active, but I can still see this being a problem, to us and other groups.(in my own opinion) Puppiemaster 18:46, 31 July 2010 (BST)
  11. Against - Poodle of Doom 22:28, 31 July 2010 (BST)
  12. Against-- Jerrel tlk (82nd!) (Project Unwelcome!). 21:54, 2 August 2010 (BST)
  13. Against This is just going to be more hassle than it is worth for users. Sanpedro 10:24, 3 August 2010 (BST)
  14. Against Isn't going to help groups with lazy wiki reps, or smaller ones, or ones which rarely use the wiki. --Athur birling 12:16, 3 August 2010 (BST)
  15. Against This just feels unnecessary. There's usually only one or two people in a fledgling group that bother to update their wiki page, and requiring them to remember this every single month is only going to frustrate them. --Shatari 20:07, 5 August 2010 (BST)
  16. Against - Not just fledgling groups. I've been the only one doing the RRF's, and it's been removed at least once recently. They're not really a small group.-- Adward  21:14, 5 August 2010 (BST)
    It's a little embarrassing that 117 people can't type 48 characters over the course of a year. Grr! Argh! *shaking fist* We're coming to get you, Barbara 21:27, 5 August 2010 (BST)
    Again, most people in a group don't have wiki accounts, either because they don't like or know how to edit a wiki, or because they're casual gamers. The chore typically falls on one or two people, and it's easy to forget something. I don't know about you, but 30 days can slip by pretty darn fast here on the farm. --Shatari 22:53, 5 August 2010 (BST)
    Exactly. Back at the MoM thing, I got a few of my strike team to vote. Several didn't have wiki accounts at all. I'd be willing to bet that's commonplace as well - most of the RRF considers this place to be a drama filled bucket of dicks. Hence why it is so infrequently used by the majority of the group.-- Adward  22:23, 6 August 2010 (BST)
    Fun fact: Only 2% of game characters have a wiki account. Even accounting for multiple accoutns belonging to one player, that's tiny.--User:Yonnua Koponen/signature2 22:28, 6 August 2010 (BST)
    All the same, it's essentially free advertising being handed out, refusal to use a site shouldn't really go hand in hand with gratis bonuses on said site. :/ We're coming to get you, Barbara 22:29, 6 August 2010 (BST)
    And yet it does! Isn't it wonderful? When the whole game, and everything to it is free, you don't really get to complain when groups use the free advertising. Every mode of group advertisement in the game is "free". (Unless you count the ads on urban dead itself.)-- Adward  23:18, 6 August 2010 (BST)
    Yes, but if you spray an ad on a building, you need to remain vigilant to replace it when needed. When you go word of mouth you need to actively find people. When you post on a forum you need to remain active so the thread doesn't die and drop off the front pages. None of those things can be left for two months before they'll disappear (unless you tag a really quiet building, but in that case you're not going to get anyone seeing it anyway). We're coming to get you, Barbara 23:23, 6 August 2010 (BST)
    The difficulty of advertising in-game is a poor excuse to make it harder on the wiki. --VVV RPMBG 23:55, 6 August 2010 (BST)
  17. Against Wiki management within a group is one of the more thankless tasks that can be assigned to a member. Making them work harder at it isn't going to motivate them to do a better job. -User:Space Tyrant | DHPD 08:02, 8 August 2010 (BST)
  18. Against-- Skoll Die 03:42, 9 August 2010 (BST)
  19. Against. It's a tiny chore, but it's a chore. It's also easy to forget. Also, people who don't want to edit wikis shouldn't be made to edit wikis more, just so that people who like to maintain wikis don't have to maintain wikis so much. Billy Forks 11:32, 10 August 2010 (BST)
    Actually, it would mean more maintenance, since we'd likely be clearing more advertisements than we currently do. Despite that, the primary maintainers of the page (myself and Misanthropy) think it's a good idea. Aichon 03:28, 11 August 2010 (BST)

New method of Organization

I posed the idea of reorganizing the recruitment page to be more useful while talking about adding in a link on the wiki side bar. So here it is. In hopefully the least drama filled form. Groups would be separated into general types. Pro-survivor, Pro-Zombie, PKer and Unique. The sections would be ordered in A-Z then the groups in each section would be ordered A-Z. Here's a short mark-up as an example:


-Player Killer Groups- Cobra
Philosophe Knights
Red Rum

-Pro-Survivor Groups- The Abandoned
DEM
The Fortress

-Pro-Zombie Groups- Feral Undead
Militant Order of Barhah
RDD

-Unique Groups(or miscellaneous groups)- Discosaurs
Organization XIII


I think this would simplify the process for people finding a group they like. If they are pro-survivor looking for that type of group instead of wading through 20 other groups they can just jump right to the pro-survivor section. If this gets implemented I would place groups in their respective sections by what I can assume from the information they provide on their advert and group pages. Lastly to solve any placement issues(read: drama) people could just move their group to where they wanted it and BAM problem solved. Other than the way the adverts are organized nothing else about the page would change and life would go on as normal. Thoughts?       22:14, 25 July 2011 (BST)

Instead of that, and in order to help avoid any bias by ordering the types of groups that way, why don't we break the page up into multiple recruitment pages, then make this page a rather nice looking splash page that explains the types of groups and has prominent links to the sub-pages? Also, you may want to look over this (it starts there and continues for the rest of the page and onto a few other linked pages), since you weren't around for it, and you should expect drama to erupt over your use of "Pro-Survivor", "Pro-Zombie", and "Unique" if you really try to push them forward. "Player-Killer" is just about the only type everyone can agree on a definition to, but then they start arguing about whether or not it should be lumped in with other types instead of having its own listing. The drama over something so trivial is really stupid. Aichon 22:34, 25 July 2011 (BST)
I'm 99% sure that all of this has already been voted down before, and for the record, I'm against it. This isn't a long or difficult page, and with each group stating its orientation plainly, simply searching for what you want is easy and quick. We're coming to get you, Barbara 22:39, 25 July 2011 (BST)
Also, more stupid drama over stuff related to naming the different types can be found here and here. Aichon 22:44, 25 July 2011 (BST)
Oh not this again. Leave as is. --DTPraise KnowledgePK 22:48, 25 July 2011 (BST)
Wouldn't breaking the page up into several recruitment pages has the basic same effect as just using headers? or am I misunderstanding your idea? Anyways, I figured broad titles are a way to avoid drama because you can't deny GKer's and RKer's along with death-cultist are Pro-Zombie as they aren't benefiting anyone else. Same for bounty hunters and Life-Cultist being Pro-Survivor. I chose Unique instead of Misc because it fits with the A-Z order(so no possible bias there). If it turns into too much a drama-fest I'll just kill the whole idea, simple as that. And Misanthropy on the off chance this game comes back to life the page could get long and hard to find what your looking for and besides there's no reason to not make searching easier. I'm about to say piss on it because i've been edit conflicted a dozen times now        22:49, 25 July 2011 (BST)

Not to mention the instant negative response :P       22:51, 25 July 2011 (BST)

There's only 40 groups advertising. Leave it on one page. --Rosslessness 23:01, 25 July 2011 (BST)

I wasn't planning on making additional pages.       23:09, 25 July 2011 (BST)
It was a general comment Maz, thats why I didn't indent. --Rosslessness 23:41, 25 July 2011 (BST)
Honestly, I'm with Ross (and everyone else saying it's a bad idea). The reason I suggested it was as an alternative to grouping them on one page, which inherently puts some ahead of others and will create drama. By breaking it into multiple pages, it doesn't feel like survivors are ahead of zombies or vice versa, since they're in different places. Aichon 00:00, 26 July 2011 (BST)
Yeah I see where you all are coming from. I'd hate to raise the wiki's drama level :P Maybe in the distant future people will get their heads out of their butts so common sense can win out.        00:51, 26 July 2011 (BST)

Reorganising the page

I thought I'd open this discussion up again. There are only 4 survivor groups listed, 2 zombie groups and 2 all play styles. It seems fairer in a lesser-populated Malton to give each group a similar chance of recruitment by having them all listed by type. I would suggest having it set out as "survivor, zombie, all-play styles". I have read through the previous discussion on it all but that was 6 years ago, and since times have changed on both the wiki and in Malton, maybe it's time for a refresh on this page too. stelar (talk) 21:45, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll endorse this. There are no current PKer groups, but I'd be satisfied with a Survivor-Zombie-PKer(/death-cultist)-Other order. Bob Moncrief EBDW! 21:58, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Re-Reorganising the page

I find the current playstyle order to be inadequate. Zombies should come first, then survivors, and then DCs & PKers should be in a single category together, and then finally the "all" groups. Zombies have a harder time recruiting in general and eternally have had the disadvantage in player ratio. Also, many players choose survivor by default, and only *maybe* play zombie on the side with an alt or two. I believe zombie groups should receive more attention to slightly boost zombie recruitment, in order to make the game more fun for both zombies and survivors in general. --RWSig1.png RWSig2.pngFoD PK Praise Rando!11:01, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

The ordering has also come up in a different discussion on Discord, regarding where to place PKers, Bounty Hunters, DCs etc. I am a big believer that DC and PK groups should be separate (based on the desires of the members of those groups), and my guess was the ordering was from most useful to the average person searching for a group (who, like you said, is most likely to play Survivor). I didn't think of the alternative, that the ordering should be designed to be most useful to the game, which would put Zombies first.
In general my philosophy towards the wiki is that it should be defined by usefulness to users, since any influence on the game itself is user-driven (see: the lack of updates forthcoming from the Suggestions system). I'd love to hear others' thoughts on the best ordering for the Recruitment page with these possibly-conflicting goals in mind. Bob Moncrief EBDW! 16:38, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
I genuinely think there is no reason to believe that putting zombies on the top of the page will actually help their recruitment. A ZOMBIE ANT 03:14, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
As DDR. Also, inasmuch as it’s able to avoid doing so, the wiki shouldn’t be engaging in activism to promote a particular side. I agree that zombies could use a boost, but this isn’t the way to accomplish it. The wiki is fundamentally a resource for the players and about the game, rather than for the game and by the players, so it should remain user-focused in how it provides its utility. Aichon 08:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Just for the record, if there were a chance it would make a difference, I wouldn't have a problem with it, I'm all for helping groups or demographics that require increased exposure. In 2009, it may have been different. But it took me under two minutes to read every survivor entry before getting to the zombie section. Of all the largest hurdles of being a functional zombie teammate, including requiring high-level coordination, communication, higher early-game difficulty, etc, a two minute delay in recruitment surely will not be the difference between a zombie recruit and a lost opportunity. A ZOMBIE ANT 12:52, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
FWIW I can also vouch that at least one zombie group (the one I'm in) has been getting quite a few new members from our wiki recruitment ad. People seem to know what playstyle they're aiming for before reaching this page. Bob Moncrief EBDW! 13:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
If you really care about the order, you could set up a schedule to mix up the order every now then. Although for the same reasons as Aichon and Bob I don't think it would have a great effect. -- Spiderzed 20:10, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Page breaking

Does anyone else notice that Malton Danger Updaters' recruitment template is substantially wider than the others? it's the only one that goes off-screen when I scroll on my browser (note: not full screen). Is there really no guideline on advert size?

Also, something seems to be affecting the text size of the UDWiki sidebar and top tabs outside the normal editing area of the wiki. Only had a quick squiz, but couldn't find the culprit. Thoughts? A ZOMBIE ANT 10:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure about your first point. It doesn't shrink like some of the other ads if I make my browser narrower, but when I have my browser maximised, the MDU ad is slightly less wide than The Scourge ad.
As for the sidebar and top tabs, I went through the history of the recruitment page, and it seems something happened when the Rolt Heights Caliphate recruit ad was put in, but I'm not entirely sure what it was, as that ad on its own page doesn't cause the sidebar/top tabs to shrink. stelar Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge 12:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I fixed the RHC issue. They hadn’t closed a div. As for widths, yeah, MDU is getting chopped off for me on my iPad, rather than shrinking down to fit the available width. Aichon 20:19, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
As a purely hypothetical scenario, what’s the standard with which we would put as a pixel limit on width? Im sure we’ve had a standard somewhere elsewhere before. A ZOMBIE ANT 21:41, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Purely hypothetically? How about the existing standard which apparently got removed from the page? It might be a good starting place. :P These are the original formatting guidelines, but these are what is at the bottom of the page right now. Looks like the latter two sections in the original guidelines, which address this topic, got dropped for some reason. I don’t recall whether that was intentional or not. Aichon 01:04, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, this is a trip down memory lane. The second I sent that comment off for input on where we have discussed size standards in the past, I scrolled this page going ‘I swear to god we did this here’... and you found it. I could be wrong, but I recall the removal of it was deliberate, with, by my memory, myself specifically saying ‘I haven’t had any problems with an 800px standard on a monitor for over 5 years’ or something equally as shortsighted ;) Perhaps the solution was to update the width limits, not remove them. Doh me. A ZOMBIE ANT 03:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Here is the most recent discussion from 2012. There was no conclusion on whether the old 800x600 standard should be changed or abolished, so I think someone just went ahead and changed it. -- Spiderzed 10:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for find that. Looks like I was recalling a completely different conversation. So, what are our thoughts on it? Should we throw in a token restriction? Or not worry? Also, my god Karek was an exhausting human being. A ZOMBIE ANT 00:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
I figured up what's up with the MDU ad. The red dashed lines are just dashes, and they don't linebreak, which prevents the width from shrinking below the length of the dashes. I reduced the number of dashes and the minimum width percentage, so it should look smaller on desktop & mobile now (I hope). If it's still too wide let me know.
And thanks for fixing out the issue with the RHC ad! Bob Moncrief EBDW! 12:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing the probs Bob, Stelar and Aichon. A ZOMBIE ANT 08:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)